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Old 03-11-2010, 07:27 PM
 
1,219 posts, read 4,210,747 times
Reputation: 591

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
As they say, the truth hurts. Reality is, the importance of the role women used to fill is gone. I do believe we are struggling to find that sense of importance again. Unfortunately, some do so by inventing importance where there is none. For example, many will argue that staying home with children is important even though there is a lack of evidence to show that children actually turn out better if mom does. If doing something makes no difference, it's not important in the big scheme of things. Some don't like hearing the truth.
See...'we' are not struggling to find a sense of importance, but perhaps 'you' are. I also think that you haven't a clue what the 'truth' is, and you just don't like being called out on it. Also, you asked for ideas on this and the other thread, and proceeded to bash those who contributed them.

Please, don't confuse your problems with the problems of all women.
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Old 03-11-2010, 07:30 PM
 
Location: The brown house on the cul de sac
2,080 posts, read 4,833,829 times
Reputation: 9314
Quote:
Originally Posted by wanderintonc View Post
See...'we' are not struggling to find a sense of importance, but perhaps 'you' are. I also think that you haven't a clue what the 'truth' is, and you just don't like being called out on it. Also, you asked for ideas on this and the other thread, and proceeded to bash those who contributed them.

Please, don't confuse your problems with the problems of all women.
Ivory, are you a female? I am beginning to think you may be a disgruntled man, perhaps???
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Old 03-11-2010, 08:21 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,167,403 times
Reputation: 3579
Ivory, since you only seem to care about studies, here are a few:

Daycare Info
Quote:
This document reviews a series of articles published over many years, in the U.S., Canada, UK, and Sweden which consistently point out the advantages of under 3s being cared for by their parents – and the dangers of institutional daycare for children under three. We discuss the reasons for these disturbing consequences.
Early Childcare - Infants and Nations at Risk - Peter Cook (http://www.newsweekly.com.au/books/0646292994.html - broken link)
Quote:
Dr Peter Cook assesses and presents the reader with valuable information regarding early child care. From looking at the biological link between mothers and their children to the research into the outcomes of early child care, Dr. Cook offers a reasonable critique, which is valuable to parents, politicians and child care workers.
Day Care Deception: What the Child Care Establishment Isn't Telling Us.
Quote:
Over the last generation, parents have felt more and more intimidated by child care "experts" and have increasingly surrendered their role as the primary educators of their children. On the premise that theories of development, often colored by ideological positions on the family and its function in society, should take a back seat to the instinctive understanding parents have of what rearing children requires, this book examines the impact of America's culture of work on the family and children. The book notes that the real conflict of day care is not between liberals and conservatives or between working mothers and stay-at-home mothers, but between all parents and the burgeoning day care establishment; the book details how this establishment works to expand its power and silence its critics.
Social Baby: Richard Bowlby - Stress in Daycare
Quote:
EXECUTIVE SUMMARY. Babies and toddlers in daycare can avoid stress and anxiety if they have a secondary attachment figure who always looks after them. In any situation where they are separated from their parents, babies and toddlers younger than 30 months feel safe only when they are with someone else with whom they have an affectionate attachment bond. This paper will focus on the stress of separation experienced by babies and toddlers in non-parental day-care, who, for any reason, do not manage to develop or maintain a long-term secondary attachment bond to one person who cares for them.
ScienceDirect - Early Childhood Research Quarterly : Children's elevated cortisol levels at daycare: A review and meta-analysis
Quote:
We reviewed nine studies in which children's cortisol levels at center daycare were assessed. Our first hypothesis, concerning intraindividual differences in cortisol levels across home and daycare settings, was also tested in a meta-analysis. Our main finding was that at daycare children display higher cortisol levels compared to the home setting. Diurnal patterns revealed significant increases from morning to afternoon, but at daycare only.
Personally when it comes to parenting I believe in trusting my gut and don't make decisions based on studies. These studies have absolutely zero influence on my decision to be a sahm. I'm only posting because you seem to think that studies mean everything and I think that if you are going to base all of your decisions off of studies, you should be informed of the research on both sides and not be-little the choices of others who have chosen a different path in life.
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Old 03-11-2010, 09:20 PM
 
5,747 posts, read 12,025,159 times
Reputation: 4511
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
She is saying that sahm's serve no purpose and are unimportant. How can that statement not be construed as offensive?
It might be surprising to some of you that I am a stay-at-home mom, and I completely understand Ivory's point. I know why I am not working -- although that may change in the near future -- and it doesn't have anything to do with thinking that my children will go off the deep end if I'm not here every second of the day.

Furthermore, I would like to suggest that SAHMs don't have the market cornered on the identity crisis. Many working men and women wake up everyday unsure if what they do for a living is meaningful, and children aren't immune to it either.
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Old 03-11-2010, 09:58 PM
 
2,605 posts, read 4,680,223 times
Reputation: 2194
Why continue to beat this dead horse? Ivory has no interest in anything anybody has to say. The same old things are repeated over and over and this thread has been going nowhere in days.
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Old 03-11-2010, 10:19 PM
 
2,605 posts, read 4,680,223 times
Reputation: 2194
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
...contributing... While women have suffered diminshing roles, ..... contribution ..NEEDED. .. needed .
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
.., women's roles, in the home, have diminished .. family farm. .. NEEDED .. needed.

..needed .. OUR ROLES have dimished. Yes, women's roles have diminished and diminished a lot. ..contribution ..... contributing? .. needed.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
... contribute ...contribution, ... ... contributing members. ... contributes ... needed as contributing ...... contribution ...... contributing member. ... contribution.
We need ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
..contribution. ... contribution ...contribute ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
... need ... needs ... needs... need ....
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
... need ... needs ...
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ivorytickler View Post
... contributing ....
And that's just the first three pages. It has become redundant.
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:09 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,440,837 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExcuses View Post
And that's just the first three pages. It has become redundant.
.Here we go again with the attack the poster stance. Happens all the time when those opposing the view can't come up with a, logical, counter argument.

The truth bears repeating . If you don't like hearing it, then either prove me wrong or don't listen. Obviously, I've hit a nerve

Of course it's said the same way. It's the point. Most people have a desire to be contributing members of a team. It doesn't take a genius to see that.

I remember attending a relationships seminar a few years back. The main issue for the wives seemed to be not feeling appreciated for what they did and the main issue for their husbands seemed to be that their wives didn't appreciate that they supported them. It was interesting to watch. I, definitely, saw the results of NOT feeling that what you do is important. I see it an all walks of life. People want to matter. Not just on a superficial level but on a real level. At the end of the day, most of us want to know that what we did mattered. We want to be respected not just for taking up room and using up oxygen but for our contributions.

If you don't struggle with this, great for you, but I see it all around me especially in other women and in our children. Men don't seem to struggle as much with this, or maybe they just don't show it. The men in that seminar seemed frustrated that their wives diminished their role as breadwinner. (Another theory of mine is that we think acknowledging what others do diminishes what we do. I don't get that. Those women acknowledging that their husbands worked hard to support them takes nothing away from their own accomplishments but they acted like it would.)

I was going to go into a personal experience with this but you wouldn't get it anyway so I'll save my breath.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 03-12-2010 at 03:40 AM..
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:43 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,440,837 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by NoExcuses View Post
Why continue to beat this dead horse? Ivory has no interest in anything anybody has to say. The same old things are repeated over and over and this thread has been going nowhere in days.
If the horse is dead, then I guess I won . I was under the impression some of us were still debating the possibility.

If you've tired of the debate (not much debating going on here as I haven't heard a good counter arugment), then walk away. I think this warrants discussion. I think it is making people think. I think those are good things.

You are not required to read every post. In fact, you can put me on ignore if you'd like. That's what people usually do when they don't want to hear what someone else says on a board.
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Old 03-12-2010, 03:48 AM
 
Location: Whoville....
25,386 posts, read 35,440,837 times
Reputation: 14692
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
Ivory, since you only seem to care about studies, here are a few:

Daycare Info


Early Childcare - Infants and Nations at Risk - Peter Cook (http://www.newsweekly.com.au/books/0646292994.html - broken link)


Day Care Deception: What the Child Care Establishment Isn't Telling Us.


Social Baby: Richard Bowlby - Stress in Daycare


ScienceDirect - Early Childhood Research Quarterly : Children's elevated cortisol levels at daycare: A review and meta-analysis


Personally when it comes to parenting I believe in trusting my gut and don't make decisions based on studies. These studies have absolutely zero influence on my decision to be a sahm. I'm only posting because you seem to think that studies mean everything and I think that if you are going to base all of your decisions off of studies, you should be informed of the research on both sides and not be-little the choices of others who have chosen a different path in life.
I am referring to longitudinal studies that followed children to adulthood. I am aware there are differences seen at snapshots in time in children, however, by the end of elementary school, all but one disappears. The one that stays is that the daughters of working moms have higher self esteem than the daughters of stay at home moms and the sons of working moms view women as more equal to men. When all is said and done, that seems to be the only difference they find in our adult children and it's probably a case of the acrorn falling close to the tree not causal though they haven't ruled out a causal relationship.

I would be very surprised if living different lifestyles didn't net different results while you are living them. The question is does it make a difference in the long run and the answer is no. While a stay at home mom may have a better behaved three year old than I did, I wasn't raising a three year old. I'm raising future adults and those differences at three, five and six (there are studies to favor both working and staying home at different ages, for example, the children of working moms are more school ready at 5 while the children of stay at home moms are more school ready at 3. Doesn't matter if you don't go to school until you're 5 though so I never got why they did that one.) that go away over time are moot.

I don't have time right now, but I'll post the longitudinal studies when I have a chance (may be a couple of weeks with my current schedule - sorry, we lost the computer that had all this on it to a virus the kid found on a music site). Yes there are differences when you look at one moment in time but there really are none, that can't be explained by family similarities (don't know if it's genetics or environemental so I can't say which) that don't go away by the end of elementary school. If what I do today has a measureable difference today but not in 10 years, did it make a difference at all? IMO, no. Maybe my kids were the 3 year olds who showed more aggression but they're not 3 anymore and there is no evidence that that whole experience had any long term effect.

If you want to debate snapshots in time, I'm the wrong person to debate with. I'm worried about the final product. If it doesn't affect the final product, I don't consider it worth worrying about. I'm not worried about infant studies when there is no long term effect any more than SAHM's should be worried that they've found that the children of working moms do better when they start school. It all seems to even out in the end.

It would appear that, no matter what our decision WRT lifestyle early on, by the time our children reach middle school, they're on even ground. For me, that makes the whole working/not working argument a financial one. If it makes no difference in the long run, I'm going to do what is best for my family in the long run, financially. While my staying home would not have made a difference, what I saved for retirement and college by working will. That's a contribution I am proud of. It's kind of cool looking at bank balances and knowing that things are in the condition they are because of me. Given the downturn in the economy, my having SAH would have been a financial disaster for us. Not that we're in great shape now but we're in better shape than most because I didn't quit.

PS, I will comment on that last study you posted. Increased cortisol may be a good thing. The fact is we deal with stress our entire lives. Increased cortisol in infants may wire the brain to help them handle it better. The problem is, it's hard to tease this one out from acorns falling close to trees. Do children of dual working parents handle work/life stress better because they inherited the ability from their parents, learned it from their parents or because when their brains were wiring they experienced increased cortisol that wired their brains to handle it? We'll probably never know the answer to this but it doesn't appear to have any long term negative effects. (another possibility is that working parents themselves naturally produce more cortisol and learn to deal with increased cortisol, which may contribute to the decision to work, and this is just genetic. I actually favor this theory. I'd love to see them compare stress responses as these children get older. More cortisol is just more cortisol until someone determines it actually does something.)

Sorry, I guess that's another difference in adulthood. The ability to juggle work/life. Children of working parents seem to do it better but, as I said, this could be genetic or environmental. It's also a toss up as to whether or not you consider a good thing. I do. I want my children to be able to handle whatever life throws at them and handle it well. Hopefully, they've either inherited the ability to do so or learned how to do so from me. I know one thing they've learned and that's that there are more important things in life than a spotless house, lol.

All of my brohters and sisters and I were day care babies. All but one of us handles stress very well. The one who doesn't doesn't at all. We can't explain her. She requires the support of the entire family during bad times. The rest of us handle our lives quite well on our own.

Last edited by Ivorytickler; 03-12-2010 at 04:28 AM..
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Old 03-12-2010, 06:28 AM
 
5,747 posts, read 12,025,159 times
Reputation: 4511
Here's a question: how did we go from helping our kids find their place in the world to the mommy wars?
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