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Old 04-01-2010, 09:26 AM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,167,403 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
And here is the conclusion (emphasis mine):

As varicella vaccine coverage in children increased, the incidence of varicella decreased and the occurrence of herpes zoster increased. If the observed increase is real, widespread vaccination of children is only one of several possible explanations.
Yes, I know what the conclusion says and that is exactly why I am saying that we need more research. If the widespread use of the varicella vaccine is possibly contributing to an increase in shingles cases as has been suggested, theorized and observed then we need to know since that could have very serious implications for our society as a whole.

Last edited by Dorthy; 04-01-2010 at 10:43 AM.. Reason: grammar
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Old 04-01-2010, 04:08 PM
 
305 posts, read 652,762 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by AADAD View Post
Agreed. CS'ers are much more dangerous to their own families and children.

I do not believe that a child anywhere in the United States can begin school without being vaccinated.

Not true, I believe most states have exemptions, religious, some philosophical and all medical (duh!)
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Old 04-01-2010, 06:42 PM
 
Location: Lyon, France, Whidbey Island WA
20,831 posts, read 17,015,172 times
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I stand corrected, no problem. I encourage any parent who is seriously considering ways around the vaccines that you spend some time in an emergency room to see what happens when kids come in so sick that some dont survive diptheria whooping cough polio and on and on.....it.s up to you to research these things. Just because any exemption is allowed does not make it wise. different cities and different states have different rates of illness in childhood. I would advise you to weigh the merits of the vaccine vs established side effects as NO ONE wants a tragedy in your home. IMO it is more risky to avoid the vaccine than to take it however each child is unique and deserves their unique requirements to be reviewed with a medical doctor. that is basic common sense. if you dont get this information and make decisions regarding your child and your child gets reallysick when you come to the ER you will be asked questions and depending upon the mood and/or experience of the nurse or doctor the situation could escalate to a legal matter. That can seem arbitrary and your view would be correct that it is arbitrary left to chance. Your children look to you to keep them safe. If you get attention or secondary gain by not vaccinating your children you may want to compare notes with a psychologist. Being a parent is very hard work. dont make it harder by a viewpoint which is contrary to science and public policy for established reasons. And as Ive said earlier if you dont protect your kid do you think your kid is really going to appreciate that?
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Old 04-02-2010, 06:09 AM
 
Location: Williamsburg, VA
61 posts, read 174,514 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
It is not just "convenience". In pre-vaccines times, kids missed a lot of school due to chickenpox. People poo-poo "convenience" until their own kids get chickenpox. My two kids had it back-to-back, between Thanksgiving and Christmas. They were both very sick with it, too. It is a proven fact that the second and subsequent people in a family to get cpx have more severe cases than the first one does. Also, adults can be very sick if they get it. There is no series of endless boosters. You may be confusing chickenpox vaccine with tetanus/diptheria, which requires a booster every 10 years. Chickenpox vaccine requires two doses, at least 30 days apart (can be years) for lifetime immunity.

VAERS reports in and of themselves don't tell one anything. Correlation does not equal causation.


Yes, I am well aware that correlation does not equal causation. I stated that in one of my original posts. Rest assured I have plenty of education in this area.

VAERS is an open database that accepts entries from any one with probable or suspected vaccine reactions. No, not all entries will be due to a true vaccine reaction, but many are. There have been lots of kids harmed by vaccine, and many saved because of vaccine. However, you don't know how they will affect your kid until you give one. This is why I give only 1 at a time. Sometimes I'll give Hib and IPV together since they have a low rate of reaction.

It is interesting how you say the varicella vaccine confers lifetime immunuity. How exactly do you know this? Even the pharmaceutical companies say that is is possible that boosters will be needed. It is quite up in the air at the moment, waiting on the first children to get the vaccine to come into their 50s and 60s. The official schedule is only 2 shots. That doesn't mean that is all they will ever need.

There is something to be said for convenience, but I will not do something like give a vaccine purely for my convenience. Some other parents may feel differently, and that's ok.
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Old 04-02-2010, 07:17 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 7,177,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by lhpartridge View Post
I don't agree with allowing exemptions in public schools for religious reasons. Those parents should enroll their children in private schools or homeschool them. Don't parents have a right to enroll their children in a school where they can be confident that 100% of the students have been vaccinated? What about their rights and the rights of their children?

I'm pretty sure the right to avoid germs is not in the Constitution or the BOR, or even federal case law. On the other hand, the right to a free and appropriate public education, regardless of religious views, is guaranteed by law, hence the religious exemption.
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Old 04-02-2010, 07:20 AM
 
14,349 posts, read 14,165,853 times
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Yes, I am well aware that correlation does not equal causation. I stated that in one of my original posts. Rest assured I have plenty of education in this area.

VAERS is an open database that accepts entries from any one with probable or suspected vaccine reactions. No, not all entries will be due to a true vaccine reaction, but many are. There have been lots of kids harmed by vaccine, and many saved because of vaccine. However, you don't know how they will affect your kid until you give one. This is why I give only 1 at a time. Sometimes I'll give Hib and IPV together since they have a low rate of reaction.

It is interesting how you say the varicella vaccine confers lifetime immunuity. How exactly do you know this? Even the pharmaceutical companies say that is is possible that boosters will be needed. It is quite up in the air at the moment, waiting on the first children to get the vaccine to come into their 50s and 60s. The official schedule is only 2 shots. That doesn't mean that is all they will ever need.

There is something to be said for convenience, but I will not do something like give a vaccine purely for my convenience. Some other parents may feel differently, and that's ok.

.................................................. .................................................

What I hear you and some of the other parents saying is that you don't object to vaccination, but you object to the timing at which vaccines are given. Ok, fair enough.

I see this though as very different from a class of people in this country who have truly whacko ideas. A "whacko idea" is an idea like:

1. I object to all vaccination because the immune system is sufficient to prevent all diseases. (People who have this notion are not realizing that its the "herd immunity" conferred by vaccinating millions that is preventing epidemics of disease not the body's immune system)

2. MMR shots cause autism. (When at least twelve studies prove they don't).

3. I won't vaccinate my kids because I object to the principle that "big government" can tell us what is good for us. (a ridiculous notion when the benefits of vaccination have been proven over and over again)

4. My kids can get the same benefit from eating healthy food and taking vitamins. (No, they won't. And that has been endlessly proven as well)

5. Vaccination is a government plot to poison us. (A really stupid argument, but there are actually some who believe this)

I guess I have this question for all you people who claim you merely object to the "timing" at which the vaccines are given: If we pro-vaccinators drop our objections to the timing at which your kids receive their vaccines will you admit that vaccination is a good thing and that people should get their kids vaccinated? I don't desire to fight with you over mere timing. My dispute is with people who claim they have some God-given right to never have their kids vaccinated.

Will you repudiate the nut-cases and the crazies who ride on your coattails who have a general opposition to all vaccines?
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Old 04-02-2010, 07:43 AM
 
Location: Eastern time zone
4,469 posts, read 7,177,246 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
I usually don't get involved in these vaccine debates b/c they often end up badly, however, I started in this one to give out some information.
Last things first, so to speak, I'll address the final paragraph. These vaccines have been researched to within an inch of their lives. I don't know which vaccines anyone would think were unnecessary. Which disease would you like your kids to get? Most of these diseases are very serious and can cause deatlh. A "healthy lifestyle" does not prevent your kids from getting these diseases either. The most likely one to contract, pertussis, is not, as the anti-vaccine literature would like you to believe, just like a bad cold.

Next paragraph up. For many reasons, unimmunized kids can attend school when they are contagious and expose other kids. Many diseases have similar symptoms at the beginning of an illness, e.g. fever, cough, runny nose, etc. Even rash diseases are often written off as "viral exanthem", roseola, etc. Then it turns out that the child has measles. It also takes a while to define an epidemic. Pertussis can spread like crazy before it is declared epidemic. Also, the unimmunized child can be the "index case" that spreads it around the classroom, before diagnosis.

Boosters are necessary to maintain immunity for several vaccines, esp. diptheria, tetanus, and pertussis. Pertussis vaccine wears off as kids get older. Fortunately, there is now a vaccine for older kids and adults that contains pertussis vax. My daughter got pertussis at 13 by attending summer camp with someone who had a "bad cough".

Finally, just what vaccines do you think are unnecessary? Would you like your kid to get diptheria? My grandmother lost several siblings in a diptheria epidemic, and it is a horrible way to die. Her mother, my great-grandmother, had a stillborn during that diptheria epidemic. Pertussis I already covered. Tetanus, which is not communicable from person to person but is infectious, is nearly always fatal. What about polio? Remember FDR in his wheelchair? Meningitis? Lovely disease, can cause mental retardation and permanent hearing loss. Measles can cause death and lots of other complications. Mumps can be serious in an older child. Rubella can harm an unborn fetus if the mother is exposed to a child who has it and isn't immune herself. Pneumonia? Lots of fun on oxygen, can cause death. Rotovirus can cause death from dehydration. Hepatitis A is caused by eating contaminated food, and while most people recover, it can be lengthly and keep one from work/school for months. Hep B is partially blood-borne, but about 40% of cases have no known cause, and it can be fatal. Cervical cancer? No thank you.

That having been said, it's entirely possible to live a long and happy life and not do every vaccination that comes down the pike at the recommended time. My kids are vaxed, though we delayed and separated inoculations because it was best for our particular circumstances. I do understand certain concerns, though.
I'm allergic to tetanus shots. Haven't had one since 1971; and don't plan to. It doesn't seem to have been a death sentence, despite near constant yardwork and a close association with pruning shears. (Having one might well be, what with that nasty "airway occlusion" thing.)
Gardasil (for cervical cancer) is recommended at the age of nine, and lasts approximately ten years. Very few girls are sexually active at nine, and those who are likely have bigger worries than potential exposure to venereal warts that may at some point possibly become cervical cancer. Meanwhile, the effectiveness of that particular vaccine wears off at an age when most women are sexually active. What lunatic came up with that schedule?
My youngest two got the varicella vaccine (twice, in fact, because the local kindergarten refused to accept the first one since it was the day before their birthday @@). They haven't gotten chicken pox, but they did manage to bring it home to Dad anyway. I know several kids who have gotten the disease despite the vaccine, and so it seems like a colossal waste to've bothered. (My older two got their immunity the old fashioned way-- chicken pox parties.)
The HiB vaccine was frequently ineffective in its first several years, and required reformulation.
So I understand about being skeptical, and doing your homework. I wouldn't go so far as to dismiss all vaccines out of hand, though, either. Even if you're convinced vaccines categorically cause autism, I'm thinking it's preferable to having a kid in an iron lung.
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Old 04-02-2010, 12:34 PM
 
3,004 posts, read 3,877,225 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
Gardasil (for cervical cancer) is recommended at the age of nine, and lasts approximately ten years. Very few girls are sexually active at nine, and those who are likely have bigger worries than potential exposure to venereal warts that may at some point possibly become cervical cancer. Meanwhile, the effectiveness of that particular vaccine wears off at an age when most women are sexually active. What lunatic came up with that schedule?
I have the same concern about the Hep B series for infants. Since I'm thinking my children won't be trading needles or having sex until at least 12 years of age, I'd like to know who came up with this infant vax schedule? Yeah, kids bite, so I can see that as a transmission point, but do we really have a bunch of kids running around the playground with Hep B infections? If so, where did they get it?

I think that some of these schedule recommendations are pointed at a certain segment of the population that is a high risk group for bad diseases and we are not in that class (thank God).

As I said, I am not categorically opposed to vaccinations at all -- just want to use my head to think about what MY child really needs and what type of schedule would be appropriate. Even though it means more shots in the long run, I'd prefer to give only one vaccination at a time so that if there is a reaction, I know what caused it.

Lastly, I'm extremely sympathetic to parents of children whose condition appeared to change directly after a vaccination. You will never hear me calling them fools, idiots, freaks, zealots, or any other name. If any one of us had gone through what they've been through, we would also be questioning and trying to find the answer to what happened. I'm not overly reassured by studies because there are so many confounding factors in what is a complex scientific process. For example, perhaps thimerosol does not cause autism -- but that does not mean that there isn't some causal relationship between vaccines and neuro damage, only that we have as yet failed to identify the exact nature of that relationship or the causal factor. All scientific discoveries begin with observation and inquiry into that observation. Many parents have observed changes in their child very shortly after a vaccine. The explanations given by the pharmaceutical industry for this do not satisfy me and are often not even very logical. I think it's wise to keep questioning and studying.
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Old 04-02-2010, 01:59 PM
 
2,605 posts, read 4,680,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by chattypatty View Post
I am an RN from a family of doctors and my husband also has doctors in his family -- and I will ABSOLUTELY control whether my children get vaccinations, which vaccinations they get, and on what schedule they will get them. Any doctor who does not respect my opinions, answer my questions and my reservations thoroughly and respectfully, and who cannot offer me alternative scheduling is not someone who gets to work for me.

Bullying people who don't agree with you by trying to paint them as ignorant hicks or religious fools is not going to work. There are too many people who actually DO like to think for themselves.
Quote:
Originally Posted by chattypatty View Post
I think that some of these schedule recommendations are pointed at a certain segment of the population that is a high risk group for bad diseases and we are not in that class (thank God).
I'm not sure whether you are trying to impress us, or you just plain think you are better then everybody else. Whatever the case may be, you hold no credibility with me. You are pitifully condescending to people.
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Old 04-02-2010, 03:51 PM
 
4,359 posts, read 4,204,537 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Aconite View Post
I'm pretty sure the right to avoid germs is not in the Constitution or the BOR, or even federal case law. On the other hand, the right to a free and appropriate public education, regardless of religious views, is guaranteed by law, hence the religious exemption.
I hadn't thought of it as a Constitutional issue. Of course it is.

So now, do public schools have the right to require immunizations at all?
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