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Old 10-18-2010, 03:39 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,166,813 times
Reputation: 3579

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
1. The silly icons do not enhance credibility.
I like them so there.

Quote:
2. Please provide some documentation for your statement about the immune system not being fully developed until age 6 months.
I would think you would know this considering you are a nurse. It's not some sort of hidden conspiracy theory.
Newborn immune system

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3. The reason boosters are not now recommended is that there is no need for them at present (in people with normal immune systems). You are wrong to say that someone immunized as an infant won't be immune 20 years later. I have explained this several times, and yet you keep repeating this untruth.
The CDC says that according to studies the Hep B vaccine provides immunity for 20 years in healthy individuals. Why would I believe you over the CDC?

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4. IF boosters are recommended at some point in time, primary care docs will know to recommend them.
And as of now they are not recommended in healthy individuals.

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5. There is no such thing as common sense.
Oh really?

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6. How do you know that all your child's close contacts are HBV negative? Are you going to require them to show you copies of their labwork? This isn't always something people are comfortable disclosing.
I know the people who will regularly be around my infant and providing her with care do not have Hep B. I'm also not worried about family or friends bleeding on my baby.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:40 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,166,813 times
Reputation: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by suzy_q2010 View Post
Never heard of one child biting another? Two kids running into one another playing and bumping heads? How about kids at a swimming pool sharing towels? Are you going to forbid contact sports until whatever age you decide is best to give the vaccine?

And if you are only going to wait until 6 months, there is really no physiologic reason to do so.
You are talking about kids running around. Infants don't run around. There is no reason not to wait until 6 months.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:50 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,364,617 times
Reputation: 35920
1. Fine. Many people think they are childish.

2. Your link about the immune system is not a scientific article. We give a lot of vaccines, not just Hep B, before 6 months, e.g. DTaP, polio, hib, pneumococcal vaccine and rotavirus vaccine. In fact, the rotavirus vaccine series must be completed by the 8 month birthday. DTaP, polio, hib and pneumoccal vaccine series are all completed (ideally) by 6 months, with boosters to follow after age 1.

3. Because you are misrepresenting what the CDC says. I believe that is called prevarication.

4. THE REASON BOOSTERS FOR HEP B VACCINE ARE NOT RECOMMENDED AT PRESENT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE AT PRESENT DEEMED UNNECESSARY. IF/WHEN THEY ARE DEEMED NECESSARY, HEALTH CARE PRACTITIONERS WILL GIVE THEM.

THE REASON BOOSTERS FOR HEP B VACCINE ARE NOT RECOMMENDED AT PRESENT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE AT PRESENT DEEMED UNNECESSARY. IF/WHEN THEY ARE DEEMED NECESSARY, HEALTH CARE PRACTITIONERS WILL GIVE THEM.

5. Yes. "Belly bands" used to be very commonly used to keep the infant from developing an umbilical hernia. Cereal in the bottle does not make babies sleep better, despite what many parents think. Teething does not cause serious fevers and fussiness. Vomiting and diarrhea is not "flu". Just a few examples of "common sense" stuff I've heard.

6. You think.
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Old 10-18-2010, 03:57 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,994 posts, read 41,017,756 times
Reputation: 44925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
Hep B is not transmitted via fecal matter. It's transmitted through blood, semen, vaginal fluids and urine. If my child gets a skinned knee a Hep B positive child would have to bleed on my child's skinned knee in order to pass on their infection. What is the likelihood?
You are correct. I was thinking Hepatitis A. That is oral/fecal.

See here: Children and Hepatitis B Transmission and here:for child to child transmission of hep B: Research: Hepatitis: Hepatitis B | CDC AIP.

"Transmission of hepatitis B virus generally occurs most commonly and efficiently through percutaneous, sexual, and perinatal exposures. However, in Alaska, compared to other parts of the world, the perinatal route plays a less important role. Among the Alaska Natives who become HBsAg carriers, the majority are infected after birth but before the fifth birthday [McMahon et al. 1985, Estroff et al. 1985].: Child-to-child transmission is the dominant role in the spread of hepatitis B virus. Common vectors are important in transmission in children noted by the HBsAg found in impetiginous lesions and in gingival washings of carriers as well as on the walls of homes and on the school lunchroom tables."

"Not only were the children under 5 years the primary reservoir for infection, but they also were more likely to suffer the long-term sequelae of the infection. Some of these sequelae are necrotizing vasculitis, hepatocellular carcinoma, chronic active hepatitis, and cirrhosis of the liver. "

The article describes the transmission of hep B from children to adults and from village to village. It covers the effects of the vaccination program in this high risk population. One ongoing study will monitor antibody levels in vaccinees and help answer the question about the need for booster injections.

This was a high risk population. Your child is probably at lower risk of coming in contact with an infected child, but it could happen.

And here for sibling to sibling transmission: TRANSMISSION OF HEPATITIS B VIRUS AMONG SIBLINGS  Am J Epidemiol


The vaccine is safe and effective. Why not just follow the recommended schedule?
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:07 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,166,813 times
Reputation: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
1. Fine. Many people think they are childish.
Great!!!!

Quote:
2. Your link about the immune system is not a scientific article.
It's the truth. Sorry but I'm not going to spend my day trying to prove it to you.
Quote:
We give a lot of vaccines, not just Hep B, before 6 months, e.g. DTaP, polio, hib, pneumococcal vaccine and rotavirus vaccine. In fact, the rotavirus vaccine series must be completed by the 8 month birthday. DTaP, polio, hib and pneumoccal vaccine series are all completed (ideally) by 6 months, with boosters to follow after age 1.
I'm aware of the vaccine schedule.

Quote:
3. Because you are misrepresenting what the CDC says. I believe that is called prevarication.
No I'm not. Please provide a source for your claims.

Quote:
4. THE REASON BOOSTERS FOR HEP B VACCINE ARE NOT RECOMMENDED AT PRESENT IS BECAUSE THEY ARE AT PRESENT DEEMED UNNECESSARY. IF/WHEN THEY ARE DEEMED NECESSARY, HEALTH CARE PRACTITIONERS WILL GIVE THEM.
Quit shouting at me. You aren't saying anything new or interesting here.

Quote:
5. Yes. "Belly bands" used to be very commonly used to keep the infant from developing an umbilical hernia. Cereal in the bottle does not make babies sleep better, despite what many parents think. Teething does not cause serious fevers and fussiness. Vomiting and diarrhea is not "flu". Just a few examples of "common sense" stuff I've heard.
Yeah, I know all of that. Just because you've heard some stupid things in your years as a nurse does not mean that everyone is stupid.

Quote:
6. You think.
I know.
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:27 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,364,617 times
Reputation: 35920
^^^You can't tell me to quit using all caps for emphasis any more than I can tell you to quit using icons.

CDC DVH - HBV FAQs for Health Professionals

"How long does protection from Hepatitis B vaccine last?
Studies indicate that immunologic memory remains intact for at least 20 years among healthy vaccinated individuals who initiated Hepatitis B vaccination >6 months of age. The vaccine confers long-term protection against clinical illness and chronic Hepatitis B virus infection. Cellular immunity appears to persist even though antibody levels might become low or decline below detectable levels.

Among vaccinated cohorts who initiated Hepatitis B vaccination at birth, long-term follow-up studies are ongoing to determine the duration of vaccine-induced immunity."

There is a huge difference between saying it lasts only 20 years, and saying it lasts at least 20 years.

Questions and Answers About the Vaccine Schedule | The Children's Hospital of Philadelphia

"Since the universal infant recommendation was made in 1991, public health officials are expecting to see decreases in liver cancer and disease rates as these children become adults."

As you can see, the oldest infants who got Hep B at birth are just now turning 19. We don't know if they will remain immune. If they don't a booster will be recommended.

To add to that, many states did not mandate hep b vaccine until much later, some as recently as 2010:

State Mandates: Hepatitis B

You don't know the health status of everyone your child will come in contact with before you decide to immunize her.
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Old 10-18-2010, 04:41 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,166,813 times
Reputation: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana;16308567[url=http://www.cdc.gov/hepatitis/HBV/HBVFaq.htm
CDC DVH - HBV FAQs for Health Professionals[/url]

"How long does protection from Hepatitis B vaccine last?
Studies indicate that immunologic memory remains intact for at least 20 years among healthy vaccinated individuals who initiated Hepatitis B vaccination >6 months of age. The vaccine confers long-term protection against clinical illness and chronic Hepatitis B virus infection. Cellular immunity appears to persist even though antibody levels might become low or decline below detectable levels.

Among vaccinated cohorts who initiated Hepatitis B vaccination at birth, long-term follow-up studies are ongoing to determine the duration of vaccine-induced immunity."

There is a huge difference between saying it lasts only 20 years, and saying it lasts at least 20 years.
That's exactly what I said way back in post #92.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
The CDC says that immunity lasts for at least 20 years in healthy individuals. It also sounds like more studies need are being done because they don't really know how long immunity lasts.
You even quoted it in one of your replies (#105). You can stop calling me a liar now. Thank you.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:14 PM
 
Location: Georgia, USA
36,994 posts, read 41,017,756 times
Reputation: 44925
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
I like them so there.

I would think you would know this considering you are a nurse. It's not some sort of hidden conspiracy theory.
Newborn immune system

The statement that an infant's immune system is not mature until 6 months is simplistic and misleading. It does not mean that we should wait that long to start vaccines.


The newborn's immune system is different but competent to handle vaccines. During the first 6 months, the infant derives some protection form antibodies passed from mother to fetus. As those antibodies expire, the infant is left vulnerable and must make its own antibodies. There is no physiologic reason to defer the hep b vaccine to 6 months or later. The infant will actually have no hepatitis protection from mom if she is not vaccinated herself, by the way. This article: Hepatitis-B Vaccination in Pregnancy: Safety and Immunogenic Response in Mothers and Antibody Transfer to Neonates - Reddy - 2010 - Asia-Oceania Journal of Obstetrics and Gynaecology - Wiley Online Library indicates that if mom herself is vaccinated during pregnancy, protective antibodies are found in cord blood of the infants, but decline rapidly. I am not going to buy the article to find out how they define "rapidly." The loss of "passive immunity" from mom is a very good reason to vaccinate sooner rather than later.

The CDC says that according to studies the Hep B vaccine provides immunity for 20 years in healthy individuals. Why would I believe you over the CDC?

Here is the source for "23 years". Ask The Experts: Hepatitis B

[SIZE=3][/SIZE] [SIZE=2]For how long is hepatitis B vaccine protective?[/SIZE][SIZE=2][/SIZE][SIZE=2] [/SIZE] [SIZE=3][/SIZE] [SIZE=2]Studies indicate that immunologic memory remains intact for at least 23 years and confers protection against clinical illness and chronic HBV infection, even though anti-HBs levels might become low or decline below detectable levels.[/SIZE]
It does say "at least." As new research becomes available, it may be longer. We have to wait until more information is accumulated.

And as of now they(boosters) are not recommended in healthy individuals.

About boosters (and more): Hepatitis B Vaccine Questions and Answers
[SIZE=2]"Will your child need a booster shot later in life?
At the present time, booster doses are not recommended routinely for people with normal immune systems. Although the level of protective antibodies in the blood of a vaccinated person seems to decline with time, the immune system retains an immunization "memory" and if the person is exposed to HBV, the system "kicks in" and provides the needed protection.[/SIZE]

[SIZE=2]Experts are continuing to monitor the long-term effectiveness of hepatitis B vaccine and will issue recommendations on the need for booster doses if evidence shows that booster doses are necessary."[/SIZE]

This is what Katiana has been explaining to you.

I know the people who will regularly be around my infant and providing her with care do not have Hep B. I'm also not worried about family or friends bleeding on my baby.
You assume that you know your family's and friends' medical history. Any of them could have it and not know it or know it and not share that fact with you.

Last edited by suzy_q2010; 10-18-2010 at 05:33 PM.. Reason: correct typo and fix link
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:19 PM
 
Location: Foot of the Rockies
90,316 posts, read 120,364,617 times
Reputation: 35920
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
That's exactly what I said way back in post #92. You even quoted it in one of your replies (#105). You can stop calling me a liar now. Thank you.
You have implied the immunity wears off and that the person will then be unprotected. I am saying they are doing long-term studies to determine if a booster may be needed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
I would think the age of 10 would be a safe bet. That way they would most likely be protected at least up untilt he age of 30. I don't know of many 10 year olds who are sexually active.

All of the evidence so far says 20-23 years. If most cases are contracted in teenagers and young adults, the young adults may not be protected if they get the shot as infants. Boosters are not recommended for healthy individuals. .
See above.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dorthy View Post
According to the CDC boosters are only recommended for hemodialysis patients and immunocompromised persons. They are not reccomneded for anyone else.
Because at the moment they are unnecessary.

Quote:
The CDC says that immunity lasts for at least 20 years in healthy individuals. It also sounds like more studies need are being done because they don't really know how long immunity lasts. If the vaccine is good for 20 years (or even 23) then a person's immunity might wane just when they need it the most.
Which problem could be resolved by a booster. The studies are being done. In the meantime, a person would be immune throughout adolescence and much of young adulthood.
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Old 10-18-2010, 05:50 PM
 
4,267 posts, read 6,166,813 times
Reputation: 3579
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katiana View Post
You have implied the immunity wears off and that the person will then be unprotected. I am saying they are doing long-term studies to determine if a booster may be needed.
You are implying that immunity goes past the age of 20 and so far there is no evidence of that. You don't know if someone is protected after 20 years because the results of those studies have not been published yet.

Quote:
Because at the moment they are unnecessary.
How do you know?

Quote:
Which problem could be resolved by a booster. The studies are being done. In the meantime, a person would be immune throughout adolescence and much of young adulthood.
We know that a healthy 20 year old who had been vaccinated as an infant would still be immune (most likely) at the age of 20 but we don't know anything beyond that. We are still waiting on the results of the studies. It is you who are implying things.

As far as this:
Quote:
the young adults may not be protected if they get the shot as infants. Boosters are not recommended for healthy individuals.
I'm not implying anything. If I said they won't be protected, that would be different but I said, may not which means we don't know. I find it odd that you do know that protection lasts longer then 20 years when as of yet there is no evidence of this.
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