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Old 04-11-2010, 08:16 AM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,379,095 times
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No...I agree...the rules must be the same for both of them. They need to be treated as a couple.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:22 AM
 
576 posts, read 991,014 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nuala View Post
I didn't pick up that the OP wants her daughter out of the house from 8 to 5, neither that the OP wants to put in writing that her daughter has to pick up trash, mow the lawn, dust etc. I would imagine she knows where her daughter would send her if she got this in writing. That means she is preparing for different treatment of her daughter and her SIL, - a recipe called "How to lose your daughter".

My daughter works full-time, so no worry she'll be sitting on the couch soaking up a/c and watching tv all day, when she should be out looking for employment, as is the case with her husband.

And yes, there would be some rules with regard to my daughter too. She's an adult, she can contribute around here, just as she did when she lived here. Chores, cooking, cleaning, etc. Nobody gets a free ride, not me, or anyone else that lives here.

And yes I agree wholeheartedly that it should be a position that it's not such that they want to stay here for any longterm arrangement, both of them, not just her. Not like I am just pining away for my grown daughter to be living here either. She's an adult, she has her own life, and she should be living it, in the confines of her own residence, her own space in life.

As for finding it within myself to tx her husband with as much respect as I can muster. Now there, that is a problem. I will not, I know I can control that, berate him up one side and down the other, to his face, or to my daughter, but I find it terribly hard to be warm and welcoming to him. As I said earlier, he came by here last night briefly, (problem with daughter's vehicle, her out of town) and the reception he got from me, was icy-cold at best. And I couldn't help it. I didn't welcome him with an open reception. I didn't want him here. I find it very hard to be civil to him. "Respect" him for what?

Let me just mention on his most recent job that he lost. He was sent home for some infraction (hasn't said, none of my biz,) middle of week before last. Sent home, without pay. Told to return the following Monday which would've been (4/05). He just didn't bother going back in, to try to salvage his job. A job that we got for him, the 2nd one we'd gotten for him. Had been employed there 7 mos. This is like job # what?, 20.....?????....... I dunno, since we've known him.

Daughter had left him, for the 2nd time, and come here. She spent some time here undecided as to whether to return to the home, the marriage. He promised her that he would go back into work on Monday and try to salvage the job. She went home, on that premise. And he didn't go in on Monday.

Yes I know that's her decision, to stay there when he didn't follow through on his promise. But I also know that my daughter talks to me, (she didn't at one time, ......... her's and my relationshp was severly hampered by our insistence that she not marry him, not right now, and the reasons given as to why, she shut down and quit talking to us, me). That has improved. She has talked to me, I know what's in her heart. She is tired of pulling him through life, mommy'ing him into adulthood/responsibility (all the things that she was warned would be her fate in marrying him), and no believe it or not I have not uttered the words to her "told ya so". I'm sure those words are ringing loudly in her ears all on their own without my saying them. She's in enough of a dilemma without having to hear those words from her mother.

But having said the above, obviously it is her decision as to whether to remain in that union, and I do have a firm grasp on that. Heartbreaking for me to watch it, she doesn't have to *settle* for this kind of life. But if she chooses it, it's certainly her choice. But the fact that I know, the confidences she shares with me, (because she feels safe in doing so), I know that she is deeply troubled and debates whether to stay and mommy him into adulthood (if that's even possible with a compulsive liar and a bum who won't hold a job).

Thus I find it terribly difficult to "respect" him from any vantage point. No, in the interest of keeping the relationship I have with my daughter, I won't berate him, I won't rip him up one side and down the other, not to him, not to her. But respect him? Tx him with warm welcoming and so glad to see him? Why? How? Can't find it in me to do. Not really.
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:37 AM
 
Location: Denver 'burbs
24,012 posts, read 28,379,095 times
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You can't have one set of rules for him and one for her. Either "they" can eat your food and watch your TV or "they" can't. You don't have to respect the guy (and I totally understand your disdain) but like it or not, your daughter chose him and continues to make that decision. That is her choice and you need to suck it up and be pleasant to him. She may never leave him and she may have children with him. Do you want to have that relationship or not? I do think if they "need" help - you can certainly offer your home temporarily, but I would write out a contract outlining what their plan is to move out and ahead....
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Old 04-11-2010, 08:46 AM
 
2,605 posts, read 4,680,223 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nnyl View Post
All of my extended family sees the plight (we've talked). They all would refuse "him" refuge. All except my spouse. My spouse fervently believes that you do not separate a marriage.

Just so worried about what may be coming. Them, looking for a roof over their head after the loss of yet another job by her husband (and for questionable reasons).
First, IMO you shouldn't be discussing your son-in-law with the extended family. All that does is put notions in their heads instead of allowing them to draw their own conclusions. Those two don't need any more strikes against them, and it's no one's business but theirs who she marries and how they live.

It isn't for YOU to worry about. It's their problems, not yours.

Quote:
Originally Posted by nuala View Post
The more you try to "help" your daughter, the longer the situation will go on. There is not a steep cliff behind her back, but a safety net held by her mom. I think this is the situation where you have to let it develop on its own. Ideally, geographical distance would be the best, but if not, you have to develop steely resolve of NOT wanting to learn details and NOT offering any solutions or your roof.

Imagine that someone would know every detail of your own marriage. Along with gratitude of having someone's shoulder to cry on, you would harbor some resentment towards the very fact that this person knows too much. This is the type of help with the time bomb inside. Anything that could go wrong in your marriage or in your life in general, you could potentially blame on this person's interference.
This is very important advice. Take heed.

Quote:
Originally Posted by suzie02 View Post
Well there seems to be an issue in your marriage since you can not both agree on what is best for your daughter. Maybe you need to speak to a counselor that helps you make the decision that is best for your daughter.
Neither should decide what's best for their grown, adult offspring. SHE needs to be making those decisions and living with them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by nnyl View Post
I'll probably just cave in and let them both come this way, should that need occur.
Big mistake. There are shelters and other resources they can turn to. Taking them into your house will only make bigger problems and make the existing ones worse. They want to get married, they should be grown up enough to take care of their own business. Give them a chance to grow up.

Re-read Hopes account of lessons learned. Those lessons are necessary and can only be learned by experience. Taking them in will rob them of learning important lessons.
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:38 AM
 
576 posts, read 991,014 times
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Default Angry Parent in Law

Maybe some b'ground will be useful. Hadn't wanted to bore anyone with the details, if you don't wanna look it over, don't.

This just goes back as far as when they first married (there's other prior history but I'd have to write a book). He had jumped from job to job prior to marriage. Finally went to trucking school and obtained a CDL license and was on the road for mos./training. And this is when all the contention was present, with our encouraging her to "live with him" as opposed to marrying, as there was an engagement. But nope. Marriage was to be.

Was some questionable issue at that time (while in training for trucking, out on the open road), before marriage, wherein he'd just been left at the terminal by his trainer. The only explanation was that it was time for the trainer to go home for a while. So you get left? at the terminal?, no other assignment, no other trainer, no way home, out of state, you just get left, is that how it works? That's what we were told. He was just suddenly here, after some panic stricken phone calls to his mother to buy him a plane ticket home, as he'd been "left" at the terminal, no other plans, just left behind. The explanation at the time was that the trucking co. will buy bus tix for those when it's time to go home, but him, he was not entitled to such as only a trainee. So he was just, *stranded* out of state, left behind. He did ultimately go back to the in-state terminal here and get on another truck, same trucking co., another trainer, and off he went, again.

So we forged ahead, plans for a wedding, conservative, such that we could afford. Him out open-road trucking at the time. He came home for the wedding, honeymoon. And the story was that he was to go back on the road once they returned from the honeymoon, would be given his next assignment. Only he didn't. No explanation other than there didn't seem to be any assignments. Tried getting on (so he said) with other trucking firms, no dice. Spent the first 4 1/2 mos. of their marriage unemployed, and no, not collecting unemployment, so one might infer (though that would be an assumption on our parts and maybe an incorrect one at that, and nothing more than that, so that accusation was never voiced out loud) perhaps he didn't measure up, maybe he quit, because he decided he didn't like it. But one would infer that the absence of any unemployment comp, maybe he'd, at least, not been terminated. That's for sure.

During this time frame it was said that his g'father (who lives out of state, driving distance however) was ill and not expected to make it. His bio father also lives in the same community as this dying g'father. So off he went, with their already too tight a budget to go see his dying g'father. Told my daughter (she confided in me) that his father was going to pay his fuel to drive there. Turned out to not be true. He used funds they could barely afford, to do so. But that's not the crux of it. He returned from the ailing g'father's bedside (he is unemployed at this time remember) , to announce that his bio father was going on vacation in FL, and he was going to join them for a long weekend. His bio father and the father's bimbo, going on vacation in FL. And so my daughter's husband announced, upon the return from beside vigil with ailing g'father, that he was going on vacation with the bio dad the next weekend.

The ailing g'father not expected to make it, yet the bio father (who is the son of this ailing g'father) is leaving to go vacation in FL? Didn't make sense to my daughter. If this ailing g'father is so ill, so ill in fact, that her husband is being implored to drive up that way for last g'byes, ...... how is that he has ralied to the point now that everyone can leave his bedside vigil and go on vacation, was kind of her sentiment at the time. The animosity here was from a vantage point that he was unemployed at the time, her husbandm and they were barely hanging on by a thread financial wise, with lack of income from him. Yet he was going on vacation, after having lied in order to go to see his ailing g'father that his bio dad was going to pay his fuel, and that turned out in the end not to be true.

So he returns from the bedsdie vigil to announce he's going on vacation with his bio dad and the dad's bimbo, in FL the following weekend (daughter couldn't go along, no money, but beside that point, she had to work). Oh not to worry my daughter was assured by her husband, his dad was paying his way (that too turned out to be not true). You see, we utiized him some that week on a project, to throw some monies their way and he handed her $50 of what he'd earned that week, and took the balance to go on vacation with his bio dad. This from a guy who was bringing no income into the marital household. She blew a gasket. That's the first time she left him.

Then, over xmas time. The job he just lost. He was working at that job, a job we got him, thru connections we know, the 2nd job we'd gotten him, he no-showed on the first one. And anyway he announced that they were shutting down operation the week after xmas. And so he planned a trip up to see his bio dad (out of state). The company where he worked, shutting down operations, he said, no pay, just shutting down operation the week after xmas. That turned out to be not true. This was found out because it deeply disturbed my daughter that a company that employs hundreds of people, could just shut down the week after xmas, and put how many people out of work, and no pay, and nobody is balking. So she called, while he was gone out of town to see his bio dad, to verify the info she'd been fed. Nope, not true. They were fully functional and working. She almost left again, and for good, that time. There was a huge huge issue at that time. I know this because my daughter shared the information with me and her dad.

Then of course, most recently, as explained earlier. He was sent home, he describes as a reprimand, but has not elaborated what this reprimand was for. Sent home, without pay. Was instructed (so he says, or was it a ploy to get my daughter, to return to the marital home, as she had now left him again, this is the juncture wherein she was sharing with me and her father that she doesn't know if she wants to continue mommy'ing and pulling him along thru life, etc.), ........... was instructed, so he said, to return to work on Monday 4/05, to meet with the powers-that-be to salvage his job, that's what she was told, that's what he told us, her. She did return to their residence, the Sunday night before he was to return to work on that Monday. He didn't go in, at all, on Monday. Daughter (explains of her own accord, not being waterboarded to talk), that she just couldn't fight with him anymore. Says that no sooner than she moved back in with her things, he started in, that he just couldn't go back, couldn't face them, that he'd likely be suspended from work for 2 weeks, can't afford to not work for two weeks, that he can't face the fellow employees, too embarassed. She said they fought all night about it, her insisting that he get over any embarassment, and that two weeks with no pay is better than mos. and mos. of being unemployed which is what she predicts might be the case. Fought all night, she says. Until she finally told him (this she share with her father and myself), "do what you want, but don't be surprised when I'm gone ............ for good, I'm not putting up with this forever".

Now why she chose not to pack up her things again and leave on the night that he decided to fight that he indeed wasn't going back in on that Monday to try and salvage that job (if that was even true to begin with, that there was opportunity to salvage the job), ...... why she didn't pack up and leave again, and for good, only she knows. And you all are so right, this all has to be her decision.

Obviously I have my thoughts, and what I think she should do. But I honest to goodness have not shared that with her. The only things she's heard from me are along the lines of "well you're not stupid, you will figure out what you want for your life, it's your decision, only you know what works best for you".

So here we are today. That's why the original post to begin with. That first 4 1/2 mos. of their marriage, they were living off of her income, and the substantial cash they'd rec'd in wedding presents. That's how they survived at that time. They have since moved and their rent is considerably more, and they no longer have that reserve of the considerable amount of cash they rec'd in wedding presents. So, either he finds employment pretty fast (good luck with that). I mean he couldn't go the two weeks he supposed he'd be suspended from work, without pay, but he can somehow manage to no-show, and promise he'll find another job. So he couldn't afford the two weeks without pay, .......... and so I'm surmizing, they may be on my doorstep for a roof over their heads sooner rather than later. I don't know that to be true. I'm just a worry-wart. But I know that what my daughter earns is not enough for them to continue to live there, and they are under a one-year lease, not to expire until Sept. 2010.

Btw, he has, since they married (he lied, they sat down, at some point on budgets prior to a wedding, what she earns, what she owes, him like-wise). He'd told her his truck payment, at that time was in the range of $270 some odd, is what she was told. Not true at all. Turned out when they were married and that truck payment needing to be made, it was over $500 monthly (it was a very nice truck). My daughter told me how, when she found that out, I guess soon after they married, she just sat in the floor and cried, and asked him "why did you lie to me, how are we going to make it?". That truck has since been repo'd and he has filed BK on his debt alone.

So here we are today, at this juncture. And I'm supposed to find it in my demeanor to tx this guy with "respect". As far as I'm concerned, respect is "earned". I'm not seeing any arena where that has been achieved, not really, not at all. Respect him because he's a hard worker? Nah, nope, nadda in that category. Respect him because he's honest? Gee, no, can't do that either. Respect him because he's good to my daughter and makes her happy? Gee, nope, zip on that also. Hard to find any arena where that much needed "respect" has been earned.

Last edited by nnyl; 04-11-2010 at 09:50 AM..
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:49 AM
 
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You need to hold your daughter equally responsible for these failures. She chose this man.

She moved to a more expensive apartment knowing that he can't successfully hold down a job.

She needs to learn how to live within her means---with or without him.

She also needs to stop telling her mother every detail about her marriage.

You know WAY TOO MUCH about their lives.
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Old 04-11-2010, 09:52 AM
 
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Can't say I blame you, nnyl. I'd be doing the same as you.

I find it hard to believe that most everyone here thought making things uncomfortable meant making it only for him. I just thought that would apply to both. But just do it. Make life hell in your home.

I think a time limit to get their own place is in order. Either 3, 6 months (?) or the first time he f's up. then they'd probably be gone within a couple of weeks.
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:00 AM
 
576 posts, read 991,014 times
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[quote=NoExcuses;13690527]First, IMO you shouldn't be discussing your son-in-law with the extended family. All that does is put notions in their heads instead of allowing them to draw their own conclusions. Those two don't need any more strikes against them, and it's no one's business but theirs who she marries and how they live.

It isn't for YOU to worry about. It's their problems, not yours.

We are a very close family all of us, live in the same area. These occurences have been witnessed by extended family that are all very loving, and all very much a part of each others lives. Not that I'm running and spinning tales. It's all been evident, all along. And most recently Easter Dinner spent with extended family all gathered together, sans the husband, who had been left. And it was daughter who shared info with extended family in attendance at the Easter function.

But that isn't the first time, by a long shot that the problems are right there to be seen. We all do a lot together, all of us.
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:12 AM
 
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Tough situation. Good luck. Make certain your daughter uncerstands that just because she cannot move back because she married a man who chooses not to provide for his family that you and her mother still love her. It is just time for her to be a mature woman and make her own way with the good sense with which she was raised.
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Old 04-11-2010, 10:14 AM
 
Location: Sacramento
2,568 posts, read 6,737,036 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nnyl View Post
Maybe some b'ground will be useful. Hadn't wanted to bore anyone with the details, if you don't wanna look it over, don't.

This just goes back as far as when they first married (there's other prior history but I'd have to write a book). He had jumped from job to job prior to marriage. Finally went to trucking school and obtained a CDL license and was on the road for mos./training. And this is when all the contention was present, with our encouraging her to "live with him" as opposed to marrying, as there was an engagement. But nope. Marriage was to be.

Was some questionable issue at that time (while in training for trucking, out on the open road), before marriage, wherein he'd just been left at the terminal by his trainer. The only explanation was that it was time for the trainer to go home for a while. So you get left? at the terminal?, no other assignment, no other trainer, no way home, out of state, you just get left, is that how it works? That's what we were told. He was just suddenly here, after some panic stricken phone calls to his mother to buy him a plane ticket home, as he'd been "left" at the terminal, no other plans, just left behind. The explanation at the time was that the trucking co. will buy bus tix for those when it's time to go home, but him, he was not entitled to such as only a trainee. So he was just, *stranded* out of state, left behind. He did ultimately go back to the in-state terminal here and get on another truck, same trucking co., another trainer, and off he went, again.

So we forged ahead, plans for a wedding, conservative, such that we could afford. Him out open-road trucking at the time. He came home for the wedding, honeymoon. And the story was that he was to go back on the road once they returned from the honeymoon, would be given his next assignment. Only he didn't. No explanation other than there didn't seem to be any assignments. Tried getting on (so he said) with other trucking firms, no dice. Spent the first 4 1/2 mos. of their marriage unemployed, and no, not collecting unemployment, so one might infer (though that would be an assumption on our parts and maybe an incorrect one at that, and nothing more than that, so that accusation was never voiced out loud) perhaps he didn't measure up, maybe he quit, because he decided he didn't like it. But one would infer that the absence of any unemployment comp, maybe he'd, at least, not been terminated. That's for sure.

During this time frame it was said that his g'father (who lives out of state, driving distance however) was ill and not expected to make it. His bio father also lives in the same community as this dying g'father. So off he went, with their already too tight a budget to go see his dying g'father. Told my daughter (she confided in me) that his father was going to pay his fuel to drive there. Turned out to not be true. He used funds they could barely afford, to do so. But that's not the crux of it. He returned from the ailing g'father's bedside (he is unemployed at this time remember) , to announce that his bio father was going on vacation in FL, and he was going to join them for a long weekend. His bio father and the father's bimbo, going on vacation in FL. And so my daughter's husband announced, upon the return from beside vigil with ailing g'father, that he was going on vacation with the bio dad the next weekend.

The ailing g'father not expected to make it, yet the bio father (who is the son of this ailing g'father) is leaving to go vacation in FL? Didn't make sense to my daughter. If this ailing g'father is so ill, so ill in fact, that her husband is being implored to drive up that way for last g'byes, ...... how is that he has ralied to the point now that everyone can leave his bedside vigil and go on vacation, was kind of her sentiment at the time. The animosity here was from a vantage point that he was unemployed at the time, her husbandm and they were barely hanging on by a thread financial wise, with lack of income from him. Yet he was going on vacation, after having lied in order to go to see his ailing g'father that his bio dad was going to pay his fuel, and that turned out in the end not to be true.

So he returns from the bedsdie vigil to announce he's going on vacation with his bio dad and the dad's bimbo, in FL the following weekend (daughter couldn't go along, no money, but beside that point, she had to work). Oh not to worry my daughter was assured by her husband, his dad was paying his way (that too turned out to be not true). You see, we utiized him some that week on a project, to throw some monies their way and he handed her $50 of what he'd earned that week, and took the balance to go on vacation with his bio dad. This from a guy who was bringing no income into the marital household. She blew a gasket. That's the first time she left him.

Then, over xmas time. The job he just lost. He was working at that job, a job we got him, thru connections we know, the 2nd job we'd gotten him, he no-showed on the first one. And anyway he announced that they were shutting down operation the week after xmas. And so he planned a trip up to see his bio dad (out of state). The company where he worked, shutting down operations, he said, no pay, just shutting down operation the week after xmas. That turned out to be not true. This was found out because it deeply disturbed my daughter that a company that employs hundreds of people, could just shut down the week after xmas, and put how many people out of work, and no pay, and nobody is balking. So she called, while he was gone out of town to see his bio dad, to verify the info she'd been fed. Nope, not true. They were fully functional and working. She almost left again, and for good, that time. There was a huge huge issue at that time. I know this because my daughter shared the information with me and her dad.

Then of course, most recently, as explained earlier. He was sent home, he describes as a reprimand, but has not elaborated what this reprimand was for. Sent home, without pay. Was instructed (so he says, or was it a ploy to get my daughter, to return to the marital home, as she had now left him again, this is the juncture wherein she was sharing with me and her father that she doesn't know if she wants to continue mommy'ing and pulling him along thru life, etc.), ........... was instructed, so he said, to return to work on Monday 4/05, to meet with the powers-that-be to salvage his job, that's what she was told, that's what he told us, her. She did return to their residence, the Sunday night before he was to return to work on that Monday. He didn't go in, at all, on Monday. Daughter (explains of her own accord, not being waterboarded to talk), that she just couldn't fight with him anymore. Says that no sooner than she moved back in with her things, he started in, that he just couldn't go back, couldn't face them, that he'd likely be suspended from work for 2 weeks, can't afford to not work for two weeks, that he can't face the fellow employees, too embarassed. She said they fought all night about it, her insisting that he get over any embarassment, and that two weeks with no pay is better than mos. and mos. of being unemployed which is what she predicts might be the case. Fought all night, she says. Until she finally told him (this she share with her father and myself), "do what you want, but don't be surprised when I'm gone ............ for good, I'm not putting up with this forever".

Now why she chose not to pack up her things again and leave on the night that he decided to fight that he indeed wasn't going back in on that Monday to try and salvage that job (if that was even true to begin with, that there was opportunity to salvage the job), ...... why she didn't pack up and leave again, and for good, only she knows. And you all are so right, this all has to be her decision.

Obviously I have my thoughts, and what I think she should do. But I honest to goodness have not shared that with her. The only things she's heard from me are along the lines of "well you're not stupid, you will figure out what you want for your life, it's your decision, only you know what works best for you".

So here we are today. That's why the original post to begin with. That first 4 1/2 mos. of their marriage, they were living off of her income, and the substantial cash they'd rec'd in wedding presents. That's how they survived at that time. They have since moved and their rent is considerably more, and they no longer have that reserve of the considerable amount of cash they rec'd in wedding presents. So, either he finds employment pretty fast (good luck with that). I mean he couldn't go the two weeks he supposed he'd be suspended from work, without pay, but he can somehow manage to no-show, and promise he'll find another job. So he couldn't afford the two weeks without pay, .......... and so I'm surmizing, they may be on my doorstep for a roof over their heads sooner rather than later. I don't know that to be true. I'm just a worry-wart. But I know that what my daughter earns is not enough for them to continue to live there, and they are under a one-year lease, not to expire until Sept. 2010.

Btw, he has, since they married (he lied, they sat down, at some point on budgets prior to a wedding, what she earns, what she owes, him like-wise). He'd told her his truck payment, at that time was in the range of $270 some odd, is what she was told. Not true at all. Turned out when they were married and that truck payment needing to be made, it was over $500 monthly (it was a very nice truck). My daughter told me how, when she found that out, I guess soon after they married, she just sat in the floor and cried, and asked him "why did you lie to me, how are we going to make it?". That truck has since been repo'd and he has filed BK on his debt alone.

So here we are today, at this juncture. And I'm supposed to find it in my demeanor to tx this guy with "respect". As far as I'm concerned, respect is "earned". I'm not seeing any arena where that has been achieved, not really, not at all. Respect him because he's a hard worker? Nah, nope, nadda in that category. Respect him because he's honest? Gee, no, can't do that either. Respect him because he's good to my daughter and makes her happy? Gee, nope, zip on that also. Hard to find any arena where that much needed "respect" has been earned.
Based on all this I do not see how you expect him to follow any rules you set for your home. If you think you are going to make him look for a job you are kidding yourself.

Now on the subject of your daughter, I wouldn't let her come into you house unless she attends some counseling. She is in some weird co-dependent relationship. And you should tell her to stop bad-mouthing her husband to you. She has to stop playing the victim card to you. She has to stop feeling sorry for herself and make some decisions about where she wants to be in 5 or 10 years. Is she aware that if something happened to her he is the next of kin and can choose her fate?. Does she really trust this man with her life?
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