Any folks here with land in "Forest Reserve Land" assessment? (Brookville: 2013)

[deere110]

My wife and I are hoping to buy 20-30 acres in Pennsylvania (either Lehigh Valley or NEPA) within the next 10 years for the purpose of homesteading. I have read a little about Act 319 preservation, specifically forest reserve land, because we would like to purchase a piece of land that is at least 50% forested. I'm just hoping to hear from people in the program now and what they think of it, how much it lowers property taxes, etc...

[Honest Bob]

I think that you are confused.

I have never heard of such a thing in Pennsylvania.

There was a CRP program which was ran by the county, which let a farmer put so many acres aside, not to farm and they were paid a small amount of money. The key there is that you are not allowed to do anything to it except cut the hay. If you bail the hay, you broke the law.
Even if there was a severe drought and the farmers were desperate for hay, you are not allowed to bail it.

I have heard of a conservancy which has been buying up land in the Allegheny National Forest, which will sell you something like a 1/4 of an acre for like $5000 The purpose of it is to keep people from developing the land and to keep the people from building a house on the land. There is enough there that you could put a small cabin on it and use a porta potty, but not enough that you could put a septic system.

I would imagine that if you put land in a forest reserve, that you would not be allowed to cut the timber on it for a period of time and if you did cut the timber on it, you would have to pay back all the money that they allowed you on the tax break while it was enrolled in the program.

Basically what I am trying to say is that you can't get something for nothing.

Any fool knows that the taxes on forest land and farm land is not that much per an acre. Depending on where it is located, it might be $4 or $5 an acre. The improvements is what costs the most when it comes to paying taxes.

If you buy land with a old farmhouse on it and you do not fix up the farm house, the taxes will not change. If you buy the farm, tear down the house, build some big mansion, your taxes might go up 1000%
The key is to keep it simple and not improve the land to the point of where it is worth more then the place which you were trying to escape from.

[ki0eh]

Act 319 is usually referred to as "Clean and Green" so by that moniker you might elicit some more thoughts.

[deere110]

Originally Posted by ki0eh

Act 319 is usually referred to as "Clean and Green" so by that moniker you might elicit some more thoughts.

Yep-that's what I meant. I can't seem to go back and edit my post though-hopefully I can get some insight.

Originally Posted by Honest Bob

There was a CRP program which was ran by the county, which let a farmer put so many acres aside, not to farm and they were paid a small amount of money.

Act 319/Clean and Green is simply tax reduction-basically, the way I understand it is this: Say you have 30 acres of forest. To a timber or pulp company the land is worth however much the timber on it is worth. To a developer looking to come in, subdivide it into 2 acre lots, and build homes, it's worth a lot more, which can drive the assessed value way up. Clean and Green allows the land to be assessed at what it is worth to the timber company-not the developer, which from what I understand usually results in a pretty decent tax break. I do have a few important questions though.

-The reason we want 20-30 acres of forested land is because we want privacy and a place to hunt-we have no desire to log it for the purposes of selling timber. However, we also plan to heat solely with wood, so I need to know what the regulations are about harvesting timber for the purposes of home heating fuel from land in Forest Reserve Land status.

-I'm also interested in what kinds of "strings" this tax break could come with. As you stated Bob, you can't get something for nothing. Is the state going to want to inspect the land every so often? Would I be prohibited from doing certain things on the land (off road vehicle use, etc...)?

Originally Posted by Honest Bob

Any fool knows that the taxes on forest land and farm land is not that much per an acre. Depending on where it is located, it might be $4 or $5 an acre. The improvements is what costs the most when it comes to paying taxes.

Seeing as you're talking to a fool who currently lives in New Jersey you shouldn't be surprised. Here in Hunterdon County where I currently live, taxes on an old home on 30 forested acres with no form of farmland assessment (NJ does not have any type of forest land assessment-the only tax breaks available are for folks who can show annual revenue of $500 from their land-firewood does not count) can easily exceed $10-12,000 per year! With farmland assessment you're usually still looking at taxes north of $7000 for that amount of land. Hence the reason for a move over the border.

Originally Posted by Honest Bob

If you buy land with a old farmhouse on it and you do not fix up the farm house, the taxes will not change. If you buy the farm, tear down the house, build some big mansion, your taxes might go up 1000%
The key is to keep it simple and not improve the land to the point of where it is worth more then the place which you were trying to escape from.

"Keeping it simple" is our reason for moving. Living in NJ is too complicated, crowded, and fast paced.

[Honest Bob]

Although you said something about wanting land to hunt on, you would never make it in my world. Most people who tries to buy land like that, gets out the staple gun and puts a posted sign in every tree. That is not conducive to making friends and new neighbors in my neighborhood.

What I will tell you is that the more rural you get, the less the taxes will be on timber land. The further away from civilization you get, the less it will cost you per an acre.

One thing I will say is that you cannot heat your home for any period of time on 30 acres of timber. It would probably take 3 acres or more per a year, depending on where you bought your land, just to provide enough firewood to heat your home. In 10 years, you would have all the wood cut off the property and would be sol.

At the same time, the value of the land will be determined by the minerals under the land and the trees on top of the land, so the more valuable the content - the more it will cost you. You wouldn't buy land with veneer grade timber on it and cut it for firewood.

Brookville Wood Products, Inc. Hardwoods

[deere110]

Originally Posted by Honest Bob

Although you said something about wanting land to hunt on, you would never make it in my world. Most people who tries to buy land like that, gets out the staple gun and puts a posted sign in every tree. That is not conducive to making friends and new neighbors in my neighborhood.

Huh? I'm not really sure what you're getting at. What is the statement "you would never make it my world" supposed to mean? I'm not really interested in getting into some kind of locals vs. outsiders argument. I was under the impression that Pennsylvania was part of the United States where private property rights are honored. If I end up buying property where local folks have been hunting for years with permission from the previous owner I'd be more than happy to negotiate some sort of agreement with them. Furthermore it's not as if I'm buying a tract of land to visit once every December to shoot the biggest buck I see. This land will be my family's home and the deer we harvest from it will be our primary source of meat for the rest of year. As long as I can do that on my own land I would be happy to allow my neighbors to do so as well. However, I don't think it would be too much to ask to not have an army of guys from all over the county driving the property.

Originally Posted by Honest Bob

What I will tell you is that the more rural you get, the less the taxes will be on timber land. The further away from civilization you get, the less it will cost you per an acre.

Sure, I understand that part, but I don't think that Berks and Lehigh Counties are all that far from civilization, so the taxes wouldn't be all that cheap.

Originally Posted by Honest Bob

One thing I will say is that you cannot heat your home for any period of time on 30 acres of timber. It would probably take 3 acres or more per a year, depending on where you bought your land, just to provide enough firewood to heat your home. In 10 years, you would have all the wood cut off the property and would be sol.

This is wrong. Right now I heat a 2 bedroom (and poorly insulated) ranch home with a horribly inefficient forced air wood furnace and I only use 4 cords per year. Wherever we settle we'll be making use of a wood gasification boiler like this one (www.garn.com/page.wml/storeid/4656/p/why-garn.htm?SessionID=0a00001e07da08110a13171f7fe - broken link) which is 75% efficient. Even with a larger home (with better insulation of course) this will allow me to use as little as 2 cords per year. This is besides the point that a properly managed woodlot will produce 1-2 cords per year. I'm also fairly resourceful and am good at "finding" wood (Craigslist, free pallets, power line cuts, etc...) to supplement my supply. However, I've now hijacked my own thread-back to the program...

Originally Posted by Honest Bob

At the same time, the value of the land will be determined by the minerals under the land and the trees on top of the land, so the more valuable the content - the more it will cost you.

Right-which is why I'm interested in the first place.

[sr1234]

You would have to check with the County Assessor's office to see which land qualifies. Not all areas in a county qualify under the Clean & Green. It would also depend on the timber value, regulations about buildings on the land, and uses for the land (hunting is not allowed). You have to register by June 1st or wait a year.

[deere110]

Originally Posted by sr1234

and uses for the land (hunting is not allowed). You have to register by June 1st or wait a year.

Well if this is true than that defeats the entire purpose. Can anyone else comment?

[Purplecow]

Deere110-- I realize this thread is years old (can't figure out why it's appearing on the right-side CD "ad" board for posts. But if by chance you read it, I'd like to know if you made the move, and, if so, how you like it.

I tried like crazy before moving to Maine to relocate to Sussex County. Nothing big--in fact, really nothing big. I had friends there who owned land and horses and all that crap. Every time I crossed the Delaware Water Gap, I felt my gut flutter from the cost of living.

I still would have loved western Jersey, if western Jersey loved me. So I'd be interested in how things turned out if you moved to PA.

[toobusytoday]

Originally Posted by NewNorthMainer

Deere110-- I realize this thread is years old (can't figure out why it's appearing on the right-side CD "ad" board for posts. But if by chance you read it, I'd like to know if you made the move, and, if so, how you like it.

I tried like crazy before moving to Maine to relocate to Sussex County. Nothing big--in fact, really nothing big. I had friends there who owned land and horses and all that crap. Every time I crossed the Delaware Water Gap, I felt my gut flutter from the cost of living.

I still would have loved western Jersey, if western Jersey loved me. So I'd be interested in how things turned out if you moved to PA.

This is a post from the OP from a Jan 2013: //www.city-data.com/forum/work-...l#post27608337