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Well Bob, I'm not fighting you, just trying to have a discussion. I can see your point if you are losing hunting grounds.
I don't have that problem in my neck of the woods, and I enjoy seeing healthier habitat and harvesting larger buck. The city slickers from Philly and NJ that come into my neck of the woods are primarily once a year road hunters Joes that go home empty due to lack of effort. Their antics don't affect me in the deep woods.
From my perspective as a non hunter I think we have too many of the damn things running around up here in the northern tier.
Especially in the last year I easily encounter deer along the county roads driving along, on my parents property or in pine creek canyon.
I would not mind hunting myself but avoid the woods when major deer season kicks off. I've seen the weapons handling and safety of my neighbors and other locals and it's pretty horrific. Plenty of people around here don't think twice about snapping off high caliber rounds in any direction, 24 hours a day year round with no proper back stop. Deer season sometimes sounds like getting caught in the middle of an ambush.
Mostly from what I have seen is not a lot of "hunting" that goes on. People stake out easy places near populated areas and pop at anything that moves.
Trespassing is something that really irritates me and as I use my parents property for hiking and walking and cross country skiing, we've encountered armed "hunters" several times and asked them to leave. Posting signs I don't think really helps, only encourages them more.
IMHO, we need hunters out there, especially now cause I just think there are too many deer around, but there are also some wingnuts out there too that are too careless for my liking.
Don’t forget that I am in a camp that has aged, experienced hunters. Our cabin is three miles from the main road. We even had the head of the GC as a member years ago. Our membership is loosing interest - they don’t stick it out for the season - they are discouraged by the lack of game.
While it is great that some can still score a trophy buck; many will not buy a license next year. It still goes back to having enough game that we can make it interesting for the next generation. If we fail to capture their attention; we loose. If you have a youngster and you want to get them interested in hunting; you don’t take them deer hunting today - you go after turkeys, grey squirrels and Canadian Geese. Grouse is my favorite and most challenging hunt - but I would not recommend it today.
I live about 25 minutes from my camp. A decade ago I would count up to fifty deer in my back yard. I live sandwiched in between three developments that feed the deer. Now I see four to eight deer. The coyotes and hunters have taken a toll. I have one crotch buck that I see occasionally. Years ago I would see multiple eight pointers and larger. Dr. Alt hasn’t helped the deer around my house! Last year I think I heard about half a dozen shots during the opening days. Going back a decade I would have heard more than that in the minutes after the season officially opened.
When I drove truck I could see the change happening. Deer no longer ate peacefully along side of our roads. Before, the deer that were hit; were hit because motorist did not pay attention - the deer walked into the road and drivers simply did not stop. After the coyotes moved in the deer just jumped into your path - you had no time to react. Hunters do not scare the deer like coyotes and wild dog packs. Yes; hunters do chase deer into our roads and the number of road kills always rise during the season. With the advent of the coyotes; the deer ran into our path all year long. You have no reaction time. I am not sure if the coyotes were not smart enough to use our highways to help them make successful hunts? I have seen coyotes eating carcasses on the sides of our roads.
Wanneroo,
Do you think there are more deer today than you had in the past?
If you are unhappy with the deer on your property - then you need to take down the posted signs and let the hunters shoot them.
Currently there are no posted signs. In the past it just seems to encourage more trespassing. Personally I am not unhappy per se with the number of deer on the property except for their raids on the garden in the summer, but there appears no shortage of them.
They have a family friend that hunts on the property with permission. He always pays the courtesy of letting them know when he will be out there.
What I find irritating is people coming onto the property without asking and hunting. The property is frequently being used for other purposes, none of us wants to get tagged by a jumped up wing nut trespassing. The property is very distinctive with distinctive property lines and the neighbors know all that, but yet they have been caught a few times. And not just hunting but there was also an issue with other neighbors ripping up the land with a snowmobile and motor bikes. It just irritates me people with no manners or safety for that matter.
Do you think there are more deer today than you had in the past?
Well I only go back to spending significant time here starting in 2004 and finally permanently since 2007.
I'd say this year I have seen more deer than in the past, in all the places I go. In fact I'd say going out during the day in the woods, I'd at least have one move in front of me. Years past I don't remember that happening as often.
The coyote thing, about 2 years ago at least around the parents property they had coyotes running around disturbing the various neighbors dogs and barking and yelping half the night. It was rumored a local farmer started plugging them as he had some livestock losses, whether true or not, they don't have coyotes around any more, or at least any sign of them. Maybe that could account for some of it.
Well I only go back to spending significant time here starting in 2004 and finally permanently since 2007.
I'd say this year I have seen more deer than in the past, in all the places I go. In fact I'd say going out during the day in the woods, I'd at least have one move in front of me. Years past I don't remember that happening as often.
The coyote thing, about 2 years ago at least around the parents property they had coyotes running around disturbing the various neighbors dogs and barking and yelping half the night. It was rumored a local farmer started plugging them as he had some livestock losses, whether true or not, they don't have coyotes around any more, or at least any sign of them. Maybe that could account for some of it.
Wanneroo,
Then these are relatively short term observations. I was hoping to get more long term observations from across our State.
When my area was loaded with deer; I found it hard to garden. I would always get one dominate doe that would not give up until she ate everything. I would walk out with my slingshot and hit her in the butt - only for her to jump out of the garden and stand there waiting for me to leave. It can get very discouraging. I think that the only real cure is to give up gardening (which is what I did) or get an electric fence. You need about a ten or twelve foot conventional fence to keep out the deer - but it doesn’t work on raccoons, squirrels, voles, opossums and others. I am actually slowly getting back into gardening - with raised closed beds and a greenhouse.
Many homeowners make the mistake of planting shrubs and vegetation that our deer love. Homeowners will spend a fortune on roses, yews and ornamental trees; only to have the deer destroy them. There are two shrubs that I found that seem to be deer safe: Japanese Andromeda and the English Boxwood (only the variety with the rounder, shinny leaves and smells like cat urine). Holly holds up pretty good - deer will still nip the tender new shoots.
I think the fact Pa is the only one in the nation that has its wildlife management agency being sued, legislators denying them funding, had previous deer management head walking around in a bullet proof vest with bodyguards, and highest level of dissent of any state in the nation with our nationally known "deer wars", pretty much shows how extreme our situation here is.
And as for the question, no. The herd has not rebounded, in fact its lower than ever! The statewide buck harvest figures over the last 2 years has been the lowest in 50 years+! The PGC is a joke, and environmental extremists are and have been running the show for some time now. And there is documented proof.
These links (see 4 through 8) and other info is available on this at the website of the largest sporstmen group in the state. Allegheny county sportsmen league. ( which represents over 200,000 Pa sportsmen)
[URL]http://www.acslpa.org/html/john_eveland_videos.html[/URL]
Last edited by tito3; 11-25-2010 at 08:19 AM..
Reason: web address not working
I think the fact Pa is the only one in the nation that has its wildlife management agency being sued, legislators denying them funding, had previous deer management head walking around in a bullet proof vest with bodyguards, and highest level of dissent of any state in the nation with our nationally known "deer wars", pretty much shows how extreme our situation here is.
And as for the question, no. The herd has not rebounded, in fact its lower than ever! The statewide buck harvest figures over the last 2 years has been the lowest in 50 years+! The PGC is a joke, and environmental extremists are and have been running the show for some time now. And there is documented proof.
These links (see 4 through 8) and other info is available on this at the website of the largest sporstmen group in the state. Allegheny county sportsmen league. ( which represents over 200,000 Pa sportsmen) John Eveland Videos
Well where I live the damn things are overrunning the place. The day before I left PA for vacation a week and a half ago, Hwy 6 was littered with one carcass after another and a county pick up was going along picking them up with a completely full pick up truck bed.
What Wannaroo and other urban dwellers does not understand is that the deer is not in the woods where they belong.
The reason why they are not in the woods is because they are already in somebody's freezer.
The reason why you are seeing more deer is due to the rut and also due to the fact that deer adapt. As more and more people wanted to live in the country and displaced the normal range of the deer, the deer just adapted and learned to live in peoples yards and between houses and in small patches of woods between peoples houses.
The reason why you cannot understand this is because you do not hunt and you do not spend time in the woods. If you were in the woods you would realize that there is no deer there. It is easier for them to chew on your $400 bush in your yard then to try to find browse in the woods. As the non hunters pursued getting the game commission to cut down on the deer population and as the sportsmen pushed for more licenses and more seasons - the deer were the ones to suffer.
Your land is a Shang Ra La for deer to live and reproduce.
I had a neighbor that lived in town that had a piece of land behind his house and the deer found it favorable as a place to live. As the deer population thrived behind his house, they eventually ate themselves out of house and home.
Now you can see for 100 yards where you could not see for 10 feet.
As the trees gets bigger and the underbrush is ate away, the deer just moves to another place where food is plentiful and where hunter pressure is next to nothing.
You cannot manage a deer herd by what you see along the roads.
The deer travels mainly during the night, when predators has a harder time to attack them and when the does are in heat, the bucks will travel to where the does are at.
Deer has very few things on their minds, eat, sleep, drink water, poop,pee, reproduce.
That is about all that a deer does from the time they are born until the time they die.
It is better for hunters to shoot the deer and the hunters families to eat the deer then for them to get hit by automobiles and die along the road and lay there and go to waste.
I have not seen a road killed deer in my county in many years.
Both because of the lack of deer and because when one gets hit - the other motorist are permitted to pick it up and eat it.
From a body shop perspective, in years past by this time of the year they would have 70 vehicles with body damage in for repairs at Kuntz Chevrolet. I would imagine that if you called them tomorrow that their estimate of the amount of vehicles that they have repaired all year has not totaled more then 5 vehicles - since last January.
The reason for that is because there is no deer to hit and because people are more careful today then they were in years past.
As you go further south, say maybe down towards Pittsburgh, to places where you cannot hunt deer - the amount of deer sighted increases proportionately to the amount of houses per a sq mile and the amount of posted land where a person cannot legally hunt deer.
In the norther tier - once you leave the main roads, you will not see many if not no deer at all where traditionally you would see 100's while spotting deer at night.
The reason why you do not see any deer is because there is no deer to see.
When the deer disappear other forms of wildlife takes over the traditional territory, such as turkeys, small game, skunks, possums, coyotes. When the small game disappears, so too will the coyote population. After all - if there is nothing to eat, what else are they going to do?
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