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Dr. Gary Alt, when he was the head of the Pennsylvania Game Commission Deer Management, set us in the direction of reducing our doe population so that we could have larger bucks. Coyotes increased their numbers at the same time.
I have not hunted in the last seven years in protest. I used to drive truck and I could drive to Ohio and back without seeing one deer. Route 80 used to be loaded with deer. I am not saying that I never saw deer; but it became the norm not to see any. I have heard hunter after hunter complain about the lack of deer on our State game lands.
Even though I don’t hunt (I still enjoy the fishing); I still belong to a hunting camp with several hundred acres to hunt. Thirty years ago; we could drive out one hundred deer on the first drive. Today; the twenty members are lucky to get two or three deer in the whole season.
I have shot my share of deer in PA. I wish that our young could enjoy the Pennsylvania that my generation knew. How do we teach our young, to enjoy the sport, when we bore them to death. Our young sit at video games and have action every second. It is hard to appreciate hunting and the outdoors when they freeze their butts off and have nothing to show.
I am interested if anybody has observed improvements in our herds? I know that there will always be some deer in our developments. I am more interested if anybody is noticing improvements on State Game Lands or other hunting tracts?
There are lots of opinions on this subject - both good & bad.
IMO - I think the changes made were for the good.
- the deer population was over the healthy limit,
- overgrazing of the state forest and gamelands was not a good thing and caused a weaker deer herd overall,
- the average age of a Pa Whitetail buck before antler restrictions was 17 months. Furthermore, many young bucks (button buck, short spike) were shot either intentionally or mistaken for doe. Such management practices did not support the ability to develop a strong gene line to be passed on by an older wiley buck.
In my area, NEPA(right on border of I80), the numbers are not like they were a few years ago due to reduction of doe populations, but there are local areas where DMAP doe permits are sold in addition to regular license allottments. The woods certainly seem healthier with increased food carrying capacity. I still see deer along the local roads, depends on time of day.
In recent years I have also taken bucks with much larger racks (8-12pt), and talked to many others that have done the same. In almost every case, the successfull hunter had to hike in a mile or two to the thick swamps and underbrush to find them "wiley old bucks".
The easy-way road hunters that come up to shoot a bambi once a year are not fairing so well. They get to see a few deer, some bucks, but those deer are tucked inside the housing developments after the first shot rings out. Legal Safety Corriders put a dent on their success rates..
I'm not saying that those folks are illegally hunting from their vehicle, but they really need to walk more than 100 yards into the woods..
I fully support the changes made in PGC policies and game laws.
Varmintblaster said it better than I could. MD is looking at the same thing right now. As it is, a MD hunter can kill over 30 deer if he/she hunts all the seasons. To get an additional anterlered permit you have to get a doe first. MD bucks where I am tend to run big, both in size and antlers, so it's more a matter of herd size reduction than healthy herds. Although we did have an outbreak of blue tongue a couple years ago.
We are experienced hunters and I am sure I could still score deer if I wanted to. However; the deer population at my camp has been devastated and we have 650 acres next to a golf course. My problem, with our direction, are the new hunters. How do we get our young interested without the excitement? You need to show them hope.
You cannot tell me, that we have not gone too far, when I don’t even see signs of deer in the 600 mile trip to Ohio and back. I know what deer tracks, beds, scraps and foragings look like - especially in the snow.
However; nature does have a way to balance itself. I have to presume (I could be wrong) that our coyote population is now starting to shrink? Typically; the only thing that controls the coyote population is lack of prey. Varmintblaster; have you noticed any reductions in coyotes?
I do not doubt your claim about reduced deer #'s on your camp land.
But I like to ask you what you think the root cause for the reduction might be.
Was it overhunting, loss of habitat?. How bout your land itself? Sounds like you have a large plot, if it is heavily wooded doy you log it occaisionally to promote new growth and browse, does it attract deer? A deer can live it's whole life on a couple hundred acres.
If your habitat can stand some improvement, it is an excellent opportunity to get the younger folk involved.
Yotes?
I do my very best to control their numbers
Matter of fact, I look forward to later tonight, cold night and the moonphase is on my side
IMO - the yote population is holding it's own and probably always will. They eat alot more than the occaisional healthy fawn deer (I suspect black bear eat more fawns that yotes) and they are quickly adaptable.
They are extremely intelligent, they totally fear/distrust/loathe humans which does not allow them to drop their guard very often. They are just like crows - except for the wings
I may get lucky 1 out of every 10 coyote hunts I go out on. My lack of success is not because of the lack of coyotes. I either get winded, or totally busted by the dog. After they bust you, their yips change pitch into a wierd canine laugh.
I do not doubt your claim about reduced deer #'s on your camp land.
But I like to ask you what you think the root cause for the reduction might be.
Was it overhunting, loss of habitat?. How bout your land itself? Sounds like you have a large plot, if it is heavily wooded doy you log it occaisionally to promote new growth and browse, does it attract deer? A deer can live it's whole life on a couple hundred acres.
If your habitat can stand some improvement, it is an excellent opportunity to get the younger folk involved.
Yotes?
I do my very best to control their numbers
Matter of fact, I look forward to later tonight, cold night and the moonphase is on my side
IMO - the yote population is holding it's own and probably always will. They eat alot more than the occaisional healthy fawn deer (I suspect black bear eat more fawns that yotes) and they are quickly adaptable.
They are extremely intelligent, they totally fear/distrust/loathe humans which does not allow them to drop their guard very often. They are just like crows - except for the wings
I may get lucky 1 out of every 10 coyote hunts I go out on. My lack of success is not because of the lack of coyotes. I either get winded, or totally busted by the dog. After they bust you, their yips change pitch into a wierd canine laugh.
varmintblaster,
In the center of our land we have an apple orchard. We will also do what the GC recommended back in the 1950’s and 1960’s - cut and push over maple trees. They used to tell us to partially cut through most of the maples when they grew in a clump. Hopefully; you get them over with a hinge of barked wood still connected. Sometimes the maples will grow for years in this partially fallen way. They provide browse for the deer during the hard winters. We have also planted food crops just for the deer. The camp no longer hunts for the season; they loose interest. Probably economics also plays a role.
As far as coyotes being smart: We also have a lake about a half mile long; about a quarter mile wide. I was in the middle one day with a friend fishing. We heard a splash and saw a spike buck swimming straight towards us. As he swam by we thought that he was bleeding from the neck. We followed him to the shore. As soon as he got out coyotes immediately took chase. I don’t think he made it? The coyotes were smart enough to circle around the lake and lay in wait for him. Also my father and brother-in-law watched as coyotes drove a four pointer into the lake. They felt that the deer had damage to it’s hind quarters. We have tried to hunt the coyotes without too much success - too many wild acres, surrounding our property, that we can’t hunt on. Our GC used to tell us that coyotes only took the weak and helpless - I always felt that the are opportunist and will not starve to death if they can sink their teeth in anything.
As far as my feelings why our herds are so low: I think that it is a combination of many factors. We have a good four times the traffic on our roads as we did thirty or forty years ago. That has to take a toll. We did not have turkeys three or four decades ago. Turkeys also eat acorns. We have the coyotes. Our GC has extended the seasons and changed the regulations. I am really against the combined season - I think that it makes it easier for the hunters that will cheat. Our equipment has improved - everything from the clothes you wear, the scents you use, the bows, tree stands, guns etc.
In any sport, if you give an advantage to one team; you have to give the other team an equal advantage. Deer do not have anybody on their side today. There is just too much money at stake to increase the herds - motorist, insurance, logging, farming, landscapers and home owners.
All that said; I am still interested in hearing from anybody that thinks our herds are again improving.
I saw a bunch of deer, close to 100 total, in fields along Rte. 6 in McKean County this morning. That includes a group of 3 that were nearly harvested by my truck.
Nice discussion fisheye - I like the story about the yotes circling the lake.
Sounds like you have put some effort into habitat improvement on your property. Without knowing exact location/layout of your area, hard to tell what the main factor is.
I heard the stories about coyote stocking by PGC via insurance companies. Not sure I believe that conspiracy story - but I do believe that coyotes target weaker deer. They are very keen to details and can spot compromised ability from a mile away. Under normal conditions, a healthy adult deer will easily escape or fight off a yote.
I know there are lots of new tools that are marketed for hunters advantage today. I not a fan of most of them and rely on old-school methods. I don't douse myself with after-shave before a hunt, I don't go crazy with scent control - I just pay close attention to the wind..
I laugh every year when the old timers tease the young guys wearing scent block clothes when they relate their hunting story and describe how they made the fatal shot with a cig hanging out of their mouth and a steaming cup of thermos coffee next to them.. LOL
If you'd like a few hands-on tips on how to hunt the yotes on your club property, let me know. Sounds like you have enough land to work if you want to setup and call them in. I mostly hunt at night, but early am and dusk is a good time also. They are starting mating season now are on the prowl.
We currently have a member that has a son in the DCNR. We are knowledgeable on things we can do to encourage deer. The head of the PA GC used to be one of our members - he is now deceased. We have had an Governor that hunted land adjacent to our property.
I liked the years that the old buck season and doe season opening days sounded like a war. When I was young; I could count 100 deer almost every evening in the fields and apple orchard across the road from our house.
Back in the 1980’s, at our camp on the opening day of buck; I saw the largest herd of deer that I have ever seen anyplace. All the camps surrounding us must have driven them together. There had to be hundreds. I saw beautiful racks in the group - I could not shoot (they were too close to the does and running like heck).
When I was talking about hunting advantages today; I did not mention dirt bikes and quads. You can also throw in advances in tools to drag your kill out of the woods. Years ago; only the hardiest, fit, hunters would think of bagging a deer over a mile deep in the woods - you literally remove the hair off the side dragging one out. If there are hills; it is a hart attack waiting to happen. Now hunters can use machinery to get themselves in and there trophies out. That killed “safe” zones for our wildlife.
I might take you up on using your expertise on our coyotes. Help in that direction is always appreciated.
Thanks North Beach Person. I like to hear stories of large herds. I used to spot hot spots for deer - as deer population was changing. Those areas did change in one or two seasons.
Fisheye - I do not think that you are going to get an intelligent conversation here with people who are not from Pennsylvania and who are not hunters who have been brain washed by the PGC and their propaganda.
You asked a very simple question - has the deer herd rebounded in Pennsylvania - and the answer is NO!
I live in Jefferson County.
Jefferson county has more acres of game lands, state forests and farms then it does populated areas.
Back to the deer counting, 20 years ago, you could go spotting deer and see 100 deer in a couple of hours of driving around.
Maybe 1 or 2 hours if you were in the Porter area or up above Brockway on Bond road or the Game School road - going towards Munderf.
Now you can hunt a entire season and only see a couple of deer in either of those places.
My analogy of it is that the rich people makes the laws in this state and the rich people did not want a lot of deer, which causes problems with automobiles and crop damage. So they decided to let DR. Gary Alt manage their deer herd for them so they could hunt trophy deer.
Their opinion was that it was better for a couple of people to shoot a trophy deer - which would please a small segment of the population - then to have large deer herds - say 20 deer per a mile, where a family could go out and see 40 deer a day while hunting.
I for one am not a road hunter.
You can usually see me several miles back into the woods - at least when I have the help to drag something out - due to the fact that I am a disabled person - that does not use a disabled persons permit for anything.
I have noticed two things over the years.
One is that most deer have stopped using scrapes and have stopped rubbing trees - due to the fact that if there is only 4 does and 3 bucks on a piece of land - 1000 acres - they does and bucks already know each other and where each other is located and there is no competition amongst them to make them have to go into rut to the point of where they have to maintain those activities to establish their territory.
The second thing that I have noticed is the hunters from the north, traveling south - because the northern half of the state has a very small unhuntable deer population. As the deer population gets smaller and smaller - you will see more and more people from the northern tier counties traveling south - until finally you will see no more deer - in a herd of a huntable size.
When there was more deer then people, there was no need for posted signs.
When there was no illegal activity on a piece of property there was no need for posted signs.
As soon as one place was posted and people lost their place to go hunting, other people followed suit and put up posted signs.
As one place after the next saw bigger antlered deer - one posted sign after the next went up.
As people wanted to preserve or reserve a certain area of land for themselves and their family members to hunt on - more and more posted signs went up.
When people found themselves without a place to hunt and where they wanted their own little hunters paradise, they were more and more willing to lease ground off landowners and farmers - just so they could have a place with some deer - where there was no competition.
The funny thing was - as long as there was easy money out there to be made, no one paid much attention to how much it cost to hunt deer.
The banks paying interest on the money you kept in their banks,
The stock market paying double digit dividends.
Investors putting away money - hiding it from the government - or so you though, until one day it all disappeared when the stock market crashed.
NOW - as there is less and less deer, when it gets to the point of where there is no more deer - the posted signs comes back down and the greedy people who put them up - just moves to the next Shang Ra La somewhere south of their previous location.
The thing that disturbs me the most is that even when people says that it could not happen where they live, believe me - the day is coming when it will happen to you.
The internet is full of stories right now of people invading other peoples territory, even when there is a posted sign on every tree.
Where they tell the people who owns or leases the land that they have hunted there for years.
Or of out of town hunters invading a State Game Lands and acting like idiots and doing as they please. Camping out the night before rifle season in the parking lot. Staking out their own territory by hanging a couple of ladder stands in a particular area in the Game Lands and using it as their own private property. Littering
There is people in this world, that cannot sleep as long as there is a deer alive in Pennsylvania. The end result is - that they will not be satisfied until there is no more deer. The PGC will not be satisfied until there is no more money to exhort out of the sportsmen for the license.
When you go from over One Million Hunters taking to the woods for the first day of rifle season - to 750,000 hunters, there is something wrong with this picture. Half of it has to do with the single parent families and the women running the show. The other has to do with the lack of deer in the woods. No use buying a hunting license if there is nothing to hunt.
You can just as easily go to Myrtle Beach the first week of December and play golf.
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