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Old 10-14-2013, 08:47 AM
 
2,957 posts, read 5,914,083 times
Reputation: 2287

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Quote:
Originally Posted by RomaniGypsy View Post
We have driver's licenses showing that we're allowed to drive, and that's a picture ID. Nobody complains about that, because with the high number of LICENSED idiots on the road right now, can you imagine the pandemonium that would ensue if ANYONE were allowed to drive a car?

Voter ID laws protect one of the most fundamental of American rights - the right to vote. At the dawn of America's time the war cry was "no taxation without representation" - well how can we be represented if the voting system allows people who aren't eligible to vote, to cast votes anyway?

They probably lean Democratic because most lazy people who don't want to do things the right way (i.e. get a job and earn their own money rather than bleeding productive people out of their rightfully earned money just to finance drug habits and the "raising" of half a dozen illegitimate children) tend to vote Democratic so that they can stay on the dole. In northwest PA, I had a neighbor who was the biggest redneck you could ever imagine. I figured this guy was also a rip-roaring conservative. Nope... a DEMOCRAT... and his explanation was simple - he and his fiancee' were on the dole, and they didn't want to lose that!

So, perhaps it would turn out to be true that the percentages of people voting Republican & Democratic would change if we implemented laws to determine voter eligibility... and it would probably skew more toward Republicans than it does currently. That would show that the people who are truly allowed to vote tend to vote more Republican than the current figures seem to depict. If the people who are allowed to vote prefer Republicans, then all of you who bemoan how it would cause Democrats to lose votes are forgetting that this is a right of the people... and also that, apparently, Democrats really aren't as popular a choice amongst people who DO THE RIGHT THING than they appear to be.

If you don't support a national voter ID law, or a statewide voter ID law, tell me, from a Constitutional standpoint, why my Republican vote should be nullified by a Democratic vote from someone who has been dead for five years or from some illegal immigrant who is "illegal" for a reason, or from someone who manages to vote more than once, etc. Why should I lose my rights, or my voice, at the hands of someone who is not following the letter of the law in America? Don't just go crying with bleeding-heart liberal stories about how it's expensive or Democrats would get voted out of office or whatever. Let's talk CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS and what IS / IS NOT LEGAL here. If the playing field has to be unlevel in order for liberals to get elected, that ought to tell you something.
Your opinion is of course welcome, but how as a Republican do you not support the US Constitution? Does potentially disenfranchising over 500,000 PA residents take precedence over very few documented cases of voter fraud?

Here are some facts:

It could disenfranchise up to 500,000 voters

"There have been a handful of substantiated cases of individual ineligible voters attempting to defraud the election system. But by any measure, voter fraud is extraordinarily rare."
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Old 10-14-2013, 01:30 PM
 
41,813 posts, read 51,131,411 times
Reputation: 17865
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazerj View Post
Your opinion is of course welcome, but how as a Republican do you not support the US Constitution?
Voter ID has already been ruled Constitutional by SCOTUS.


Quote:
Does potentially disenfranchising over 500,000 PA residents take precedence over very few documented cases of voter fraud?

Here are some facts:
Here is some facts, they only have to show up at DMV with these minimum requirements if they get the voting only ID where no birth certificate is available. It's good for ten years.
Quote:
Persons who want the new Department of State Voter ID will need to provide their

Name
Address
Date of Birth
Social Security number (If the customer has been issued an SSN)
County
Previous name and/or address if changed in the past 12 months.

The applicant must fill out a Department of State application form and sign an oath/affirmation that they are a registered voter and have no other form of identification that can be used for voting. While the person waits, staff at the Driver License Center will contact the Department of State to validate that the person is registered to vote. Once verified, the person will receive the free Voter ID, which is only valid for voting and will be good for 10 years
You find this overly burdensome?
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Old 10-14-2013, 02:32 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh area
9,912 posts, read 24,687,398 times
Reputation: 5165
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Greg going to the DMV onec every 4 to 10 years is not a burden.
It is when you don't drive and haven't had to so such thing for decades. It's the sort of scenario that is completely foreign to the people who come up with this stuff. But it is out there and affects people who are otherwise completely eligible to vote (and do so typically by absentee because they can't get to the polling place, which even then is typically closer than the nearest DMV which are pretty spread out).

Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Specifically how many fraudulent votes were cast in this last election this would have prevented? You don't know and neither do I. Voter fraud is not a crime where you have dead body and know a crime was committed. We know it exists, the extent of it is unknown
Even the supporters of the law have admitted there is no evidence of fraud in PA. I can dig up links later, but I don't have time to at this second.

It has a nice logical sound to it, the whole idea, to most of us who already have a driver's license and don't see a hardship. But I am firmly in the camp that it causes more problems than it solves. I believe we need to err on the side of preserving rights.
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Old 10-14-2013, 05:23 PM
 
41,813 posts, read 51,131,411 times
Reputation: 17865
Quote:
Originally Posted by greg42 View Post
It is when you don't drive and haven't had to so such thing for decades.
?These people do not have to leave their house to get food, go to the doctor, church, visit friends.... that's bogus argument and again this is once every four years for the regular ID and once every ten years for the voting only ID. Taking one day out of your life every 4 or ten year is too much to ask?

Quote:

Even the supporters of the law have admitted there is no evidence of fraud in PA. I can dig up links later, but I don't have time to at this second.
You're talking about what was stipulated before this case began. That's normal procedure and since proving fraud cases exist is neither going to help or hurt the States case they will present no evidence. No lawyer in their right mind is going to present evidence they don't have too.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:32 AM
 
2,957 posts, read 5,914,083 times
Reputation: 2287
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
Voter ID has already been ruled Constitutional by SCOTUS.




Here is some facts, they only have to show up at DMV with these minimum requirements if they get the voting only ID where no birth certificate is available. It's good for ten years.


You find this overly burdensome?
I don't find that burdensome at all, but I have money, a car, and need for a license. If I didn't have those things, maybe I would find it burdensome.

Also, the voter ID law was upheld by the SC in 2008, but they never get anything wrong, amirite? In PA, the law has been blocked

The only thing voter id laws do is disenfranchise people. Period. There is no mythical widespread fraud.
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Old 10-15-2013, 08:43 AM
 
9,846 posts, read 22,700,426 times
Reputation: 7738
Quote:
Originally Posted by thecoalman View Post
?These people do not have to leave their house to get food, go to the doctor, church, visit friends.... that's bogus argument and again this is once every four years for the regular ID and once every ten years for the voting only ID. Taking one day out of your life every 4 or ten year is too much to ask?

You're talking about what was stipulated before this case began. That's normal procedure and since proving fraud cases exist is neither going to help or hurt the States case they will present no evidence. No lawyer in their right mind is going to present evidence they don't have too.
Yes it's amazing all these people can hit Wal mart with their EBT cards and tool around doing whatever but somehow they either have a certain color of their skin that makes them dumb and useless(so they say in the disenfranchise argument) or they are rapt with a disability that keeps them homebound from doing anything useful.

To me this is why we not only need VOTER ID but also POLL TAXES.

I don't think it's unreasonable to present ID to prove your identity when doing something so central to this country such as voting. All the screaming meemies that have railed about being disenfranchised have yet to present a case of where this is some massive hardship. These people can tootle to the country assistance office so easily yet getting an ID is so hard? Sure. The only people being disenfranchised are those committing voter fraud or are ineligible to vote such as being dead or illegal.

We also need Poll Taxes. We have too many lazy cow parasites eating this country alive one mooch at a time and they vote themselves money from the public coffers. I think people need to have some skin in the game otherwise they have no appreciation for the sacrifice others make for them to be lazy bums and a Poll Tax will help clean up that mess from the moochers.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:09 AM
 
41,813 posts, read 51,131,411 times
Reputation: 17865
Quote:
Originally Posted by blazerj View Post
Also, the voter ID law was upheld by the SC in 2008, but they never get anything wrong, amirite? In PA, the law has been blocked
Here is an excerpt of the ruling by the PA supreme Court right before they kicked it back to the Judge who suspended it which I will note was suspended becsue of it's implementation.
http://caselaw.findlaw.com/pa-suprem...t/1612215.html
Quote:

On its review, the Commonwealth Court has made a predictive judgment that the
Commonwealth’s efforts to educate the voting public, coupled with the remedial efforts
being made to compensate for the constraints on the issuance of a PennDOT
identification card, will ultimately be sufficient to forestall the possibility of
disenfranchisement. This judgment runs through the Commonwealth Court’s opinion,
touching on all material elements of the legal analysis by which the court determined
that Appellants are not entitled to the relief they seek.


As a final element of the background, at oral argument before this Court, counsel
for Appellants acknowledged that there is no constitutional impediment to the
Commonwealth’s implementation of a voter identification requirement
, at least in the
abstract. Given reasonable voter education efforts, reasonably available means for
procuring identification, and reasonable time allowed for implementation, the Appellants
apparently would accept that the State may require the presentation of an identification
card as a precondition to casting a ballot.

Last edited by toobusytoday; 10-15-2013 at 03:47 PM.. Reason: added link, changed quote to a snippet (3 sentences)
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:17 AM
 
1,834 posts, read 2,699,799 times
Reputation: 2675
Americans should be proud of their right to vote and demand safe guards that protect their right and the integrity of the vote process. Demand full photo I.D. requirements and full voter registration. As our civilization continues down the road towards diversification and the tremendous number of green card workers and others from outside the United States formal voter process is a no brainer.
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Old 10-15-2013, 09:42 AM
 
13,254 posts, read 33,569,765 times
Reputation: 8107
Let's try to keep this conversation PA centered please.

I have to say that when this first came up last year I did feel that it was not a big deal to require voter id. However, after listening to both sides of the argument, I changed my mind. The people I want to protect from disenfranchisement are the elderly. Meet The 'Super Voters' Who Could Be Disenfranchised By Pa. Voter ID Law I've been spending a lot of time with my elderly mother lately since my father passed away and I've seen just how hard it is for her to get around. She will be voting by absentee ballot because she can't stand for long. As easy as it is for us able bodied adults to hop in our cars and drive to wherever we want, it can be extremely difficult for someone that does not drive and does not live in an area of public transportation.

The other reason that changed my mind was the simple fact that voter id is just not necessary Pennsylvania admits it: no voter fraud problem - The Plum Line - The Washington Post
Quote:
The state signed a stipulation agreement with lawyers for the plaintiffs which acknowledges there “have been no investigations or prosecutions of in-person voter fraud in Pennsylvania; and the parties do not have direct personal knowledge of any such investigations or prosecutions in other states.”

In other words, the state knows that voter fraud is a nonexistent problem, but will nonetheless defend a law that could potentially disenfranchise a huge number of the state’s voters.
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Old 10-15-2013, 11:53 AM
 
9,846 posts, read 22,700,426 times
Reputation: 7738
Quote:
Originally Posted by toobusytoday View Post
Let's try to keep this conversation PA centered please.

I have to say that when this first came up last year I did feel that it was not a big deal to require voter id. However, after listening to both sides of the argument, I changed my mind. The people I want to protect from disenfranchisement are the elderly. Meet The 'Super Voters' Who Could Be Disenfranchised By Pa. Voter ID Law I've been spending a lot of time with my elderly mother lately since my father passed away and I've seen just how hard it is for her to get around. She will be voting by absentee ballot because she can't stand for long. As easy as it is for us able bodied adults to hop in our cars and drive to wherever we want, it can be extremely difficult for someone that does not drive and does not live in an area of public transportation.

The other reason that changed my mind was the simple fact that voter id is just not necessary Pennsylvania admits it: no voter fraud problem - The Plum Line - The Washington Post
I find it hard to believe that elderly people have never found the time previously in their life to have an ID and that some how this is some big imposition when they have no problem going to eat out, shop, visit friends, etc. So one trip out to obtain ID is a big deal? To me especially if they can make it to the polling place then it's really no excuse.

Even if there are a few random cases of people being completely tied up in bed, that is no reason to not have Voter ID when we have rampant illegals running around, identity theft and a whole host of other issues.
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