Municipal Fragmentation: Does it hold Pennsylvania back? (Philadelphia, Scranton: how much, neighborhood)

[Duderino]

Much like other Northeastern states, Pennsylvania is an extremely fragmented place. We have over 2,500 boroughs, townships, towns and cities. Compare this to a much larger and more populated state like California, which has only 478 incorporated towns and cities.

I often wonder how much Pennsylvania could progress on many issues in terms of education, tax reform, environmental issues, transportation infrastructure, regional planning, etc., if there was much more cooperation among townships/counties. Of course, there are many partnerships in place for service delivery for things like law enforcement and EMS, particular in our state's more rural areas.

However, it seems like our state lacks so much cohesion compared to most other states. I can't help but think that, absent the extremely parochial outlook of our many fiefdoms, Pennsylvania would be able to truly integrate its assets to become an extremely competitive state (as opposed to one that is middling, at best).

So - what are your thoughts? Do you think Pennsylvania's municipal system should be overhauled entirely to make us a much more streamlined state, or is it an innocent aspect of our historical character that should be preserved?

[pman]

CA has weather that we'll never have which makes it a poor comparison. PA did quite well, as is, for a long time. I think things can get done in the state should competent people gain positions of leadership. I think a much bigger problem is the lack of turnover. how long has a shuster been in office?

[Mr Yuk]

PA has too many small fiefdoms and the heads of those fiefdoms don't want to cooperate with other municipalities and give up their "big fish in a small pond" mentality. NEPA is a prime example, the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area has many small boroughs and townships, and when the idea of shared and regionalized services comes up, its always dead in the water. We have boroughs of 2,000 people or so right next to other small boroughs that all have their own police departments. The idea for regionalized police forces comes up from time to time, but always gets shot down because too many of these Barney Fife chiefs of these small departments don't want to lose their power. Even though shared services would result in more bang for the buck for taxpayers.

Its time to do like they do in Maryland and Virginia and consolidate police departments, fire departments, school districts, EMS, etc on a county-wide basis.

[pman]

with the exception of school districts where consolidation offers little real benefit, the other consolidations are probably a good idea...of course, md's "success" is largely driven by the money pouring through DC rather than anything they do on their own.

[gwillyfromphilly]

Originally Posted by Mr Yuk

PA has too many small fiefdoms and the heads of those fiefdoms don't want to cooperate with other municipalities and give up their "big fish in a small pond" mentality. NEPA is a prime example, the Scranton/Wilkes-Barre area has many small boroughs and townships, and when the idea of shared and regionalized services comes up, its always dead in the water. We have boroughs of 2,000 people or so right next to other small boroughs that all have their own police departments. The idea for regionalized police forces comes up from time to time, but always gets shot down because too many of these Barney Fife chiefs of these small departments don't want to lose their power. Even though shared services would result in more bang for the buck for taxpayers.

Its time to do like they do in Maryland and Virgina and consolidate police departments, fire departments, school districts, EMS, etc on a county-wide basis.

For some reason most of the Northeastern states have been slow to adapt to a county-wide level of sharing amenities. Many leaders at the municipal level would rather keep control of their individual towns even though the county as a whole continues to decline financially.

[BPP1999]

Not only the municipal-level leaders, but many of the local residents as well actually think they are better off by not consolidating. There is such a small-town mentality here. Many Philadelphia residents have a small-town mentality, with their anti-growth, anti-change attitudes. Most of the leaders we elect are just as small-minded, but when someone does have the guts and vision to offer some type of consolidation, it seems to get forgotten about. I think it's those that benefit from the fragmentation (local leaders, chiefs of police, unions, etc.) that shut out any calls for consolidation because they are the most vocal.

[Mr Yuk]

Originally Posted by pman

with the exception of school districts where consolidation offers little real benefit, the other consolidations are probably a good idea...of course, md's "success" is largely driven by the money pouring through DC rather than anything they do on their own.

I think there is benefit to school district consolidation just for the money saved from shared services, more purchasing power, shared athletic facilities, less administrators, etc. You can still have the same number of school buildings (I'm not in favor of consolidating smaller schools in to larger schools...kids are better off learning in small neighborhood schools than they are in large megaschools...plus larger consolidated schools would result in higher transportation costs)....but just the bulk purchasing power and shared services and everyone being on the same page for the greater good of the entire area would make it worth it.

But, won't happen, because school districts are some of the biggest political fiefdoms in this state.

[ElijahAstin]

You seem to really like the word "fiefdom."

[Mr Yuk]

Originally Posted by HeavenWood

You seem to really like the word "fiefdom."

Its an accurate description of small-town PA politics.

And you really chimed in to this discussion with just that? Nothing at all to add to actual subject at hand?

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by Mr Yuk

I think there is benefit to school district consolidation just for the money saved from shared services, more purchasing power, shared athletic facilities, less administrators, etc. You can still have the same number of school buildings (I'm not in favor of consolidating smaller schools in to larger schools...kids are better off learning in small neighborhood schools than they are in large megaschools...plus larger consolidated schools would result in higher transportation costs)....but just the bulk purchasing power and shared services and everyone being on the same page for the greater good of the entire area would make it worth it.

But, won't happen, because school districts are some of the biggest political fiefdoms in this state.

You already have that with various school system purchasing consortiums and Intermediate Units.

MD school systems (County based) have bureaucracies that would make PA's look like amateur night.

A couple examples from the system I work for:

Assistant Associate Superintendent for the Assistant Superintendent. Five of those in the system.

Assistant Superintendent for the School Board. Handles the School Board members' schedules.

Regional Assistant Superintendent.