Is the borough an outmoded form of government?

[pman]

perhaps the solution is to give horoughs and municipalities power to determine compensation rather than have a state system.its obvious the problem isnt simply that we dont spend enough on education, the cost of education is outstripping our ability to pay for it (income).
The School Tax Vise
http://mobile.philly.com/news/?wss=/...s&id=216202141
not to derail the thread but for the populous parts of the state the problems are less about too many municipalities han too many bad state laws...which gets back to the original post regarding dying coal country.

[Ohiogirl81]

Not to be nitpicky, but King of Prussia is in Upper Merion Township ...

[PacoMartin]

It seems like a very academic question, as the one thing that government is really good at is preserving itself.

[pman]

seems like boroughs should control more decisions than they do...particularly the number of alcohol establishments in their borough, alcohol policy, hours of operations,etc. there really isn't a need for a statewide policy on such things that are intensely local. seems ridiculous that a local bar has to argue with some outof touch, unresponsive state agency to sell beer in a town.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by pman

I agree, and if the boroughs could grow a little in size the schools might be more justifiable (another big benefit).


SEPA also kept growing, boroughs went out of fashion, now they're back in. it does seem like a situation where the answer is "it depends." fwiw, lancaster and delaware counties were both part of chester county originally (which is why chester is in delaware not chester county). montgomery was originally philadelphia county (the two together would be more like allegheny). I like boroughs in some respects and would be loathe to give them up to sprawl dominance (which is what the townships are) but there are more counties than needed. it used to be too hard to get to chester from chester county so they created west chester but today, that's no longer the case. of course, who wants to chester (not even the county seat these days).
in eastern pa, do you think there's a need for townships or could most of it be carved up into boroughs and counties?

67 counties in a state of some 12 million inhabitants too many? My native state, whose population is less than half that, has 114, plus one city that is part of no county. Some may be underpopulated, but the number doesn't strike me as too many.

As for townships vs. boroughs:

Originally Posted by pman

seems like boroughs should control more decisions than they do...particularly the number of alcohol establishments in their borough, alcohol policy, hours of operations,etc. there really isn't a need for a statewide policy on such things that are intensely local. seems ridiculous that a local bar has to argue with some outof touch, unresponsive state agency to sell beer in a town.

Liquor licenses, IIRC, are allocated on a county basis according to some sort of population formula set up when Prohibition was repealed and Pennsylvania created its control regime, but where licenses go in a county is a local matter: municipalities may prohibit licensed establishments completely within their borders...

...and in a dry township, about the only way a person or group might obtain one is by incorporating as a separate borough. That's why the borough of SNPJ, near Pittsburgh, exists: that municipality has a resident population of 0 (or less than 10, at least), I think, and its territory consists entirely of a retreat facility owned by an ethnic fraternal society (the initials above are the Slovenian initials for the group's name). The retreat is in a dry township, and the fraternal society incorporated it as a borough so it could obtain a liquor license.

Boroughs likewise have control over land use within their borders, and I have this recollection of reading many years ago about another Pennsylvania borough that was incorporated by a handful of residents whose homes fronted on a lake and wanted to do something to protect the lake from further development.

[PacoMartin]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

67 counties in a state of some 12 million inhabitants too many? My native state, whose population is less than half that, has 114, plus one city that is part of no county. Some may be underpopulated, but the number doesn't strike me as too many.

MO has 114 counties, 946 municipalities, 312 townships, 536 school districts, and 1,514 special districts
2010 population of 6,011,478

PA has 66 counties, 1,018 municipalities, 1,546 townships, 516 school districts, and 1,885 special districts
2010 population of 12,734,905

St Louis is not part of a county. Philadelphia is both a county and a city as they were merged in 1855.

Older states tend to have smaller local government than newer states. It's a natural progression. But I think that the OP is asking why we need both township government and borough government. I assume that Missouri has people whose lowest level of local government is the county. In PA that never happens.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by PacoMartin

MO has 114 counties, 946 municipalities, 312 townships, 536 school districts, and 1,514 special districts
2010 population of 6,011,478

PA has 66* counties, 1,018 municipalities, 1,546 townships, 516 school districts, and 1,885 special districts
2010 population of 12,734,905

St Louis is not part of a county. Philadelphia is both a county and a city as they were merged in 1855**.

Older states tend to have smaller local government than newer states. It's a natural progression. But I think that the OP is asking why we need both township government and borough government. I assume that Missouri has people whose lowest level of local government is the county. In PA that never happens.

*67
**1854

Most Northeastern states have no unincoprorated territory; New England towns and Mid-Atlantic townships are roughly analogous. Boroughs as a separate category of municipality seem to me to be unique to Pennsylvania and New Jersey. (I don't think New York State has them.)

Most land in states west of the Mississippi, Missouri included, is unincorporated, and indeed, the county is the base level of government for such territory. I was under the impression, however, that townships in Missouri are survey (and tax) divisions but not municipalities; I remember seeing property tax bills from the City of Kansas City that listed our East Side residence as being located in Blue Township. However, that number above suggests that at least 346 of those townships are actually incorporated municipalities.

In New York, Illinois and Missouri, villages are incorporated municipalities; in Pennsylvania, they are not, even though you will see them identified on standard PennDOT municipal-boundary signs.