Welcome to City-Data.com Forum!
U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 10-10-2013, 06:02 PM
 
Location: Pittsburgh, PA (Morningside)
14,362 posts, read 16,946,112 times
Reputation: 12400

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I don't think Pennsylvania is an exception to the national trend. I mean, is Pat Toomey's election to the Senate not evidence that Pennsylvania voters have become more conservative? The types of Republicans winning statewide contests in Pennsylania today are not like the Republicans who won statewide contests in the 80s.
I was not saying anything about Pennsylavania's congressional delegation. I was talking about the state politics, as in the state senators and state reps.

New York actually functionally works pretty similar to Pennsylvania on the state level, come to think of it. But such bipartisan "machine" states are getting pretty rare these days.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 10-11-2013, 01:51 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,988 posts, read 34,536,457 times
Reputation: 15022
Quote:
Originally Posted by eschaton View Post
I was not saying anything about Pennsylavania's congressional delegation. I was talking about the state politics, as in the state senators and state reps.
I knew exactly what you were talking about. And I said that legislatures in other states aren't really any different from the one in PA. Did you not see this?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
And I don't think Pennsylvania is really exceptional with regard to its local politics either. They say that "all politics is local," right? If you go to South Carolina, I'm sure state representatives there display the same provincialism. Politics is nothing but horse trading and there tends to be more comity on the floor of state legislatures than there is in Congress.
I just mentioned Congressional delegations because there's a perception that Republicans and Democrats can't cooperate to get anything done. When it comes to delegations, Rs and Ds actually work together rather well.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 10-11-2013 at 02:04 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-11-2013, 01:57 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,988 posts, read 34,536,457 times
Reputation: 15022
Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
and by conservative I suppose you mean pro business and job growth rather than pork barrel spending.
No. I mean socially conservative. As in NRA cardholders, religious and anti-gay. Many Pennsylvania voters are liberal on economic issues, but not on social issues. On social issues, PA is much more conservative than New York, which is almost entirely dominated by the southeastern part of the state.

Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
so people elected toomey because he's anti-gay?
People didn't vote for him for that reason alone. But it was a part of his platform. He didn't conceal that. And he was backed by the Tea Party and the NRA. Sooo....

Quote:
Originally Posted by pman View Post
really? have you ever set foot in Pennsylvania?
I think so.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2013, 07:35 AM
 
Location: Better half of PA
1,391 posts, read 1,230,853 times
Reputation: 617
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
No. I mean socially conservative. As in NRA cardholders, religious and anti-gay. Many Pennsylvania voters are liberal on economic issues, but not on social issues. On social issues, PA is much more conservative than New York, which is almost entirely dominated by the southeastern part of the state.



People didn't vote for him for that reason alone. But it was a part of his platform. He didn't conceal that. And he was backed by the Tea Party and the NRA. Sooo....



I think so.
I don't really have any proof but I'd think that PA is not really that much different on the social issues than NY. Yes, we don't have legal same sex marriage, but I still think people are pretty much people. I live here and talk to many people because of my job/family/friends. I just don't see that much social conservatism.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2013, 06:54 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
7,264 posts, read 10,544,071 times
Reputation: 8812
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
No. I mean socially conservative. As in NRA cardholders, religious and anti-gay. Many Pennsylvania voters are liberal on economic issues, but not on social issues. On social issues, PA is much more conservative than New York, which is almost entirely dominated by the southeastern part of the state.
We've had this conversation on the General US forum, but I guess I'll just reiterate my points again.

1. Pennsylvania, overall, may not be as progressive as other surrounding states, but that certainly doesn't equate to social conservatism. I honestly don't know where you're getting "anti-gay" from, when a majority of Pennsylvanians support same-sex marriage and equal rights protections in the workplace. Whether the legislature reflects that is another conversation entirely:

It's time for marriage equality in Pa. - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette
PGN-The Philadelphia Gay News. Phila gay news. philly news - Polling Pennsylvania

2. In terms of religiosity, Pennsylvania is just "average," not to mention it's affected no doubt by its relatively large senior population:

Mississippi Maintains Hold as Most Religious U.S. State

3. Pennsylvania has a pretty active gun rights contingent (e.g., high NRA membership), but 1) gun ownership is not particularly high compared to other states, and 2) PA's gun laws, despite its "lax" reputation compared to super strict NY, NJ and MD, are actually relatively strict:

Gun Ownership, by State - Guns, by State - Gun Owners Percentage by State
#10 - Pennsylvania | 10 states with the strictest gun laws | Deseret News

Bottom line -- Pennsylvania's legislature does NOT reflect its population, and its surrounding states are some of the most liberal in the country, which makes Pennsylvania appear more "conservative" when it's generally a very moderate, ever-so-left-leaning state.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-12-2013, 07:04 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
7,264 posts, read 10,544,071 times
Reputation: 8812
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
People didn't vote for him for that reason alone. But it was a part of his platform. He didn't conceal that. And he was backed by the Tea Party and the NRA. Sooo....
Toomey is no where near as conservative as Santorum (he knows he can't be, or he'll be thrown out, as well). He has also definitely toned down his rhetoric from when he was a Congressman, because he's now representing an entire state that's blue. You'd be naive to think that's lost on him.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-13-2013, 08:46 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,988 posts, read 34,536,457 times
Reputation: 15022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
We've had this conversation on the General US forum, but I guess I'll just reiterate my points again.
Yes, we have. A conversation in which you stated you really didn't pay much attention to politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
1. Pennsylvania, overall, may not be as progressive as other surrounding states, but that certainly doesn't equate to social conservatism. I honestly don't know where you're getting "anti-gay" from, when a majority of Pennsylvanians support same-sex marriage and equal rights protections in the workplace. Whether the legislature reflects that is another conversation entirely
Huh? I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Pennsylvania has a same-sex marriage ban that's currently being challenged in a federal district court. And your response to that is simply, "Well, that's not proof of social conservatism, it's just state legislatures acting against the will of the people." It's the people who vote the legislators into office. It's not like these state reps concealed their views when they ran for office. And real, actual votes beat out polling all day, every day.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
2. In terms of religiosity, Pennsylvania is just "average," not to mention it's affected no doubt by its relatively large senior population.
Nobody ever said that Pennsylvania was Mississippi. You're talking about two different types of "conservatives." But yes, Pennsylvania does indeed have a lot of religious conservatives, but that fact is less obvious since Philadelphia and Pittsburgh constitute large Democratic strongholds that offset the conservative vote.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
3. Pennsylvania has a pretty active gun rights contingent (e.g., high NRA membership), but 1) gun ownership is not particularly high compared to other states, and 2) PA's gun laws, despite its "lax" reputation compared to super strict NY, NJ and MD, are actually relatively strict.
You made the same exact argument in the other thread. Gun ownership per capita in Pennsylvania is not as high because there are big, huge cities there. But once you leave Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, gun ownership is high and gun culture is strong. And consequently, the gun lobby plays a major role in PA politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
Bottom line -- Pennsylvania's legislature does NOT reflect its population, and its surrounding states are some of the most liberal in the country, which makes Pennsylvania appear more "conservative" when it's generally a very moderate, ever-so-left-leaning state.
But Pennsylvania elects more conservative Republicans in statewide elections too. You want to believe that conservatives have simply gerrymandered their way into power, but the election of conservatives in statewide contests belies this notion. Do you really think Rick Santorum would have a snowball's chance in hell in Maryland? New York? Connecticut? Massachusetts?

Besides, I already said Pennsylvania was slightly left-leaning (I HATE when people repeat ish I've already said like they were the first to make the observation).
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-13-2013, 08:58 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,988 posts, read 34,536,457 times
Reputation: 15022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayid Linus View Post
I don't really have any proof
Always a great way to begin an argument.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sayid Linus View Post
but I'd think that PA is not really that much different on the social issues than NY. Yes, we don't have legal same sex marriage, but I still think people are pretty much people. I live here and talk to many people because of my job/family/friends. I just don't see that much social conservatism.
It depends on where you live. Your co-workers, family and friends are not a really good way to gauge the political sentiment of a state of 12 million people.

I grew up in Philadelphia and didn't have much experience with Pennsylvania as a whole until I started working full-time on the Obama campaign. I thought much like you prior to that experience. But PA is a completely different world outside of Philly, the Lehigh Valley and Pittsburgh.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-13-2013, 10:23 AM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
7,264 posts, read 10,544,071 times
Reputation: 8812
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Huh? I'm not sure if you're aware of this, but Pennsylvania has a same-sex marriage ban that's currently being challenged in a federal district court. And your response to that is simply, "Well, that's not proof of social conservatism, it's just state legislatures acting against the will of the people." It's the people who vote the legislators into office. It's not like these state reps concealed their views when they ran for office. And real, actual votes beat out polling all day, every day.
I'm quite aware of this. Obviously the legislators were voted into office by their constituents, but that doesn't mean legislators are going to be held accountable to support gay marriage, because it's generally not a high-priority issue for Pennsylvanians (which is not unlike other states; legislators in other states may have just been more progressive). Regardless, legislators' actions on gay marriage still do not reflect the general population (the legislature moves so glacially slow on basicially every issue), not to mention PA's DOMA law was passed in the 1990s. You honestly think social attitudes haven't changed since then?

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Nobody ever said that Pennsylvania was Mississippi. You're talking about two different types of "conservatives." But yes, Pennsylvania does indeed have a lot of religious conservatives, but that fact is less obvious since Philadelphia and Pittsburgh constitute large Democratic strongholds that offset the conservative vote.
I never said anything about conservatives. I'm only pointing out that Pennsylvania isn't particularly religious in the context of the broader US, since you're the one who brought up religiosity.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
You made the same exact argument in the other thread. Gun ownership per capita in Pennsylvania is not as high because there are big, huge cities there. But once you leave Philadelphia and Pittsburgh, gun ownership is high and gun culture is strong. And consequently, the gun lobby plays a major role in PA politics.
How is this different from any other state? Do you think Upstate NY, Downstate IL or Western MD don't have higher gun ownership rates once you leave those states' major urban areas? That's just rural life. And again, I acknowledge that PA seems to have a reasonably strong gun lobby, but I'm not necessarily sure how that's a "measurable" trait.


Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
But Pennsylvania elects more conservative Republicans in statewide elections too. You want to believe that conservatives have simply gerrymandered their way into power, but the election of conservatives in statewide contests belies this notion. Do you really think Rick Santorum would have a snowball's chance in hell in Maryland? New York? Connecticut? Massachusetts?
Again with Santorum. No one in Pennsylvania political history has ever been comparable to Santorum in terms of his conservative views -- he's an anomaly. I can and have named many other Republican politicians in Pennsylvania elected to statewide office who were much more moderate. Please name other politicians who compare to Santorum (and please don't say Toomey, because he pales in comparison).

Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Besides, I already said Pennsylvania was slightly left-leaning (I HATE when people repeat ish I've already said like they were the first to make the observation).
I don't recall claiming that I came up with that statement -- I was only reiterating it.

Last edited by Duderino; 10-13-2013 at 10:42 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 10-13-2013, 02:17 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,988 posts, read 34,536,457 times
Reputation: 15022
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
I'm quite aware of this. Obviously the legislators were voted into office by their constituents, but that doesn't mean legislators are going to be held accountable to support gay marriage, because it's generally not a high-priority issue for Pennsylvanians (which is not unlike other states; legislators in other states may have just been more progressive). Regardless, legislators' actions on gay marriage still do not reflect the general population (the legislature moves so glacially slow on basicially every issue), not to mention PA's DOMA law was passed in the 1990s. You honestly think social attitudes haven't changed since then?
Okay. So let me get this straight. The majority of people in Pennsylvania support gay marriage. But what happened is that these zany legislators got into office and drafted a bill that made it through subcommittee and eventually onto the floor in both houses and passed (and the Governor signed it into law). And this bill just materialized out of thin air and did not reflect the will of the general population. The legislature just did it on a whim. And Tom Corbett is now defending this whimsical law and comparing gay marriage to incest simply because he wants to. It has nothing to do with reading internal polling data that costs tens of thousands of dollars to generate and taking a political position that he finds to be most expedient.

Riiiiight. You, my friend, are not cut out for politics.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
I never said anything about conservatives. I'm only pointing out that Pennsylvania isn't particularly religious in the context of the broader US, since you're the one who brought up religiosity.
I brought up religion because pman asked me if I meant "conservative" in the sense of being pro-business. And I said "no." I meant "conservative" in the sense that these people are religious and often NRA cardholders. That's why I brought it up. These types of people are different from conservatives elsewhere because they're liberal on economic issues (said this about five gabillion times already). But they're still conservatives on social issues. And of course, Pennsylvania will not be as socially conservative as Alabama because the metro areas are much, much larger.

But that's really getting away from the point. I only brought up religion to let pman know that these aren't "pro business" conservatives; they are true social conservatives.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
How is this different from any other state? Do you think Upstate NY, Downstate IL or Western MD don't have higher gun ownership rates once you leave those states' major urban areas? That's just rural life. And again, I acknowledge that PA seems to have a reasonably strong gun lobby, but I'm not necessarily sure how that's a "measurable" trait.
It's VERY different. Pennsylvania has the second highest NRA enrollment in absolute numbers after Texas. And because the urban areas in Pennsylvania do not dominate the state the way NYC dominates New York, or the way Baltimore and the DC burbs dominate Maryland, you wind up with a state legislature that's very much influenced by the gun lobby.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
Again with Santorum. No one in Pennsylvania political history has ever been comparable to Santorum in terms of his conservative views -- he's an anomaly. I can and have named many other Republican politicians in Pennsylvania elected to statewide office who were much more moderate. Please name other politicians who compare to Santorum (and please don't say Toomey, because he pales in comparison).
This doesn't make any sense because Republicans virtually everywhere have become more conservative. That's why, in my opening post, I said that Pennsylvania is no exception to the national trend. The Republican Party has shifted hard to the right and Pennsylvania Republicans have shifted along with it. The whole reason that someone like Rick Santorum can get elected is because the state has become more conservative. This is a recent shift that has been well documented, but instead of reading the literature I post, you seem to be content to talk out of your butt. No, nobody like Rick Santorum had been elected before because the state wasn't as conservative then.

Republicans in general were far more moderate 20 years ago. George H.W. Bush would not really be considered a "true" conservative today. Ronald Reagan would also be too liberal for today's Republican Party. Richard M. Nixon, who promoted affirmative action policies, would DEFINITELY be a liberal by today's standard (and he devised the "Southern Strategy"!!!). So the Republicans people are electing EVERYWHERE are not the Republicans they were electing 20 years ago.

I mean, George W. Bush won 48% of the popular vote in Pennsylvania in 2004. That's saying a lot.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
I don't recall claiming that I came up with that statement -- I was only reiterating it.
You felt compelled to reiterate my own point back to me?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Settings
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2020 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram

Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania

All times are GMT -6. The time now is 06:41 AM.

© 2005-2024, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Contact Us - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35, 36, 37 - Top