Does Pennsylvania border a southern state? (Philadelphia, York: transplants, construction, community college)

[Borntoolate85]

Back in April, muppethammer26 provided this thread whether or not New Jersey touched a portion of the South. Given that for NJ's case only Delaware has any chance of being considered a Southern State, I'm surprised no thread has been started yet for Pennsylvania. Traditionally, in a state that borders the south, there are some Southern undertones present amid the general Northern culture, and vice-versa according to CityJunkie on another thread. Illinois, Indiana, and Ohio all border Kentucky which is pretty widely recognized as being part of the south. However for Pennsylvanaia's case, in addition to Delaware, there is also Maryland and West Virginia bordering it. All by the end of the Civil War were not part of the CSA and did not embrace Reconstruction. However, there are still some that claim (WV the most, and to a lesser degree MD and even less so DE) that PA's neighboring states that border it to its south are part of Dixie. That said, to make this poll interesting, I will provide the options of No, Yes, but only One; Yes, Two; and Yes, Three. Vote based on today, not historically.

//www.city-data.com/forum/new-j...n-state-6.html

[toobusytoday]

None of the states that border Pennsylvania have ever been considered Southern States. Some states (notably WV) may be more rural, but that doesn't make them Southern.

[pman]

there is no hard line in culture, it changes gradually from one place to the next. even DE is really a northern state in the north and a southern state in the south. I've never been to WV but MD definitely felt southern outside of Baltimore. I met a linguist in bedford who noted southern undertones in their language. the Philadelphia dialect also has southern influences supposedly.I don't know if that makes them part of dixie but that's really a separate idea from cultural influences.

[Ohiogirl81]

Who cares?

[Wells5]

The famous "Mason-Dixon" line separated PA from Maryland, which was a slave state and only reluctantly stayed in the Union. The Mason-Dixon line also extended south from its eastern PA edge separating Delaware from Maryland. Delaware was a slave state, but by 1860 there were very few slaves mostly in the southern Delmarva region. Virginia was a big slave state, but the western counties opted to stay in the union and West Virginia came into being. Those counties were full of steep hills and narrow valleys and not suitable for plantations, so no slave culture.

Was PA influenced by southern culture? If it was then it affected only the areas bordering Maryland. PA was the biggest industrial state at the time of the civil war and the south was mostly rural and agrarian. Those cultures don't readily mix.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by toobusytoday

None of the states that border Pennsylvania have ever been considered Southern States. Some states (notably WV) may be more rural, but that doesn't make them Southern.

Some people confuse slave states with Southern states. In 1860 Maryland & Delaware were slave states but there were still slaves in NJ. Even looking at it historically it's not black & white.

I'm a baby boomer. We were taught geography as a separate class. The east coast was divided into New England, the MidAtlantic, & the South. New York & North Carolina were considered the change-over states, each being in two cultural groups of states. I think that that still holds true today. So, culturally, no, Pennsylvania doesn't border any Southern states.

[Wells5]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

Some people confuse slave states with Southern states. In 1860 Maryland & Delaware were slave states but there were still slaves in NJ. Even looking at it historically it's not black & white.

When you have slaves you necessarily have overseers, slave markets, pseudo-aristocrat planters, etc. The slave culture and the southern culture (at that time) were the same.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by Wells5

When you have slaves you necessarily have overseers, slave markets, pseudo-aristocrat planters, etc. The slave culture and the southern culture (at that time) were the same.

There were still a few legal slaves in NJ. How do you explain that with your logic?

[BajanYankee]

Originally Posted by toobusytoday

None of the states that border Pennsylvania have ever been considered Southern States. Some states (notably WV) may be more rural, but that doesn't make them Southern.

That's not accurate. Maryland was considered a southern state for most of its history. I even asked this question in the Maryland forum.

//www.city-data.com/forum/maryl...ern-state.html

Maryland voted for John Breckenridge, the Southern Democrat, by the slighest of margins in 1860. Even Frederick County, which was one of the more pro-Union counties in 1860, had a clear southern identity.

Michael Powell, professor of history at Frederick Community College, re-examines an issue that was long thought resolved: that Frederick County, while divided in its sympathies, was decidely pro-Northern. This is not the case according to Powell's contribution. By relying primarily upon newspapers and election returns, Powell uses the presidential election of 1860 to prove that Frederick County was, in fact, Southern in its interests...The county voted overwhelmingly for the two "Southern" candidates. In Frederick County, John Breckenridge, the most ardent southern candidate, captured the election districts with both the highest percentage of slavery and the lowest. Not only is this contrary to voting patterns in the rest of the South, but it also raises significant questions regarding the correlation between slave-holding and voting patterns in the Upper South.

Certainly the results of the election of 1860 can be explained to reflect a Southern county in a Southern state seeking to protect her southern interests.

Mid-Maryland: A Crossroads of History - Google Books

During the 20th Century, Maryland was a Jim Crow state and one of the earliest members of both the Southern Legislative Conference and the Southern Governors Association. Its southern identity became less apparent in the 1960s and 70s as transplants began to move into the state in earnest.

[toobusytoday]

I grew up in lower Delaware. We were never taught that it was a Southern State. The Maryland border was about 30 minutes from me, it seemed very similar. I guess we could all dual it out with links. Northern By Definition: Is Maryland a Southern State? | heythoughts

Maryland is a Northern state because its characteristics fall closely within those characteristics of the North. The residents of Maryland, too, agree that there has been a shift in the “feel” of Maryland. Instead of the slow bustling farming land, Maryland is a state of commerce, trade, and economics. The politics are even in agreement with those of the Northern perspective: ” . . . politics have changed dramatically, and much of the politics are dominated by tea party activists” (Witte).