Warren/McKean County area vs. Maine for a hunting/vacation camp? (Erie: mineral rights, leases)

[Badfish740]

Within the next 5-10 years we hope to purchase property for the purposes of building a camp for fall hunting and summer vacation. My wife and I have been going to Maine for a few years now and we like the area between the north end of Moosehead Lake and the Canadian border. It's very remote, land is cheap, there's lots of snow in the winter, etc... There's only one problem-the drive. It can take about twelve hours (We live in Northwest New Jersey) to get to where we like to go with bathroom breaks, traffic, and allowing time for bad roads once we get above Skowhegan or so. By contrast, we could be in the middle of Allegheny National Forest in about six hours.

Even though they’re much closer, we’re not really interested in the Poconos because it seems to be really built up and geared toward resorts and vacation communities. That’s not really our thing. What we’re looking for is a place where we can hunt, shoot, ride ATVs/four wheel, etc…on our own land. A place where neighbors are few and far between, building codes and zoning laws aren’t oppressive, and land prices/taxes are reasonable.

One of the areas that stands out to me is the Allegheny Reservoir/Kinzua Lake. One of the things we love about Maine is the fact that there are lakes and ponds everywhere, not so much so in Pennsylvania, but it looks like if you’re close to the reservoir there are plenty of boating opportunities. Just curious to hear from other folks who have camps out that way or vacation there to get more of a feel for the area-especially the impact of gas drilling on land prices.

[bluecarebear]

Warren and McKean are beautiful counties. My suggestion is to visit as much as you can. It is a different world up there.

[ki0eh]

PA septic system rules are somewhat oppressive, more so than NY's - it's probably the severest constraint to putting up a live-in trailer or a cabin in PA. Building codes can be waived for a "recreational cabin" in PA with some limitations (and having it so recorded as a restriction at the courthouse). Zoning is highly variable by municipality (individual township by township).

If you are going to trailer your boat from your land to the launch, there are several reservoirs in Tioga County, PA which is also an hour or so from some of the larger Finger Lakes in NY State. Most municipalities in Tioga County have no zoning. This area is less consistently snowy than Warren, McKean, or Potter counties, so if snowmobiles are your thing as well as ATV's, you're better off heading further west. In any of these areas, if you are looking to buy land that includes oil, gas, and other mineral rights you will pay dearly for that privilege anymore.

[Badfish740]

Originally Posted by ki0eh

PA septic system rules are somewhat oppressive, more so than NY's - it's probably the severest constraint to putting up a live-in trailer or a cabin in PA. Building codes can be waived for a "recreational cabin" in PA with some limitations (and having it so recorded as a restriction at the courthouse). Zoning is highly variable by municipality (individual township by township).

I'd like to look into that a little more. We're in our early 30s with small kids, so right now we're looking for a place we can go strictly for recreation, but eventually we'll be looking for a place to retire, so we'd want to be able to either convert the cabin or build something elsewhere on the property.

Originally Posted by ki0eh

If you are going to trailer your boat from your land to the launch, there are several reservoirs in Tioga County, PA which is also an hour or so from some of the larger Finger Lakes in NY State. Most municipalities in Tioga County have no zoning. This area is less consistently snowy than Warren, McKean, or Potter counties, so if snowmobiles are your thing as well as ATV's, you're better off heading further west. In any of these areas, if you are looking to buy land that includes oil, gas, and other mineral rights you will pay dearly for that privilege anymore.

All great advice-thanks! As for mineral rights, we don't really care about the cashing in on the gas rush-we missed the boat by at least 10 years, so we don't expect to get on it now. What I'm more concerned with is how owning the land but not the mineral rights affects how I use the land. For example, if I don't own the mineral rights and someone else leases them to a gas driller, do I have any recourse if the driller wants to put a pad right in front of my cabin?

[Mtn-surveyor]

We are trying to do the same thing, and have been exploring & vacationing between western
Maine and central PA...with most in the Adirondacks. IMHO, stay away from land that has had
the mineral rights reserved to the seller or conveyed to third parties. Even if the 200' setback
rule is honored, theres other issues such as construction disturbance, maintenance equipment,
groundwater/wellwater quality resale value issues etc. You wont be getting the compensation
for the rights granted, but will deal with the results.
Check out the "stateimpact.npr.org/Pennsylvania/drilling" website by NPR and you will see the
areas without fracking. Ive been researching the area between the Grand Canyon of PA and
the Alleghany Forest, and Wellsboro & Emporium look like really nice towns to have a basecamp nearby. Closer in the the AF is the Kinzua/Mt Jewell area and the Kinzua Trestle State Park is beautiful. Researching on Realtor.com doesn't seem to indicate mineral rights
issues in these areas, but Im not finished. And I haven't started the development regulations
yet...one thing really nice about the Adirondacks is if you are in the Rural zone (8.5 acres)
they have a special allowance for building a "primitive camp"...that's a cabin less than 500sf
with no plumbing and septic system. Composting toilets, privys etc are ok. That gets you a
cabin up a lot cheaper.

[bluecarebear]

The farther west you go the less fracking. Wellsboro is fracking central.

Mineral rights throughout the state are the same. Land & minerals are separate items unless sold together and that is rare. The state land is the state land in name only. The mineral rights underneath are owned by corps.

Another option would be Crawford county. Access to game lands and a couple lakes. You can even drive up to Lake Erie and Erie in no time. Cleveland isn't too far either. They say the Conneaut River is the best steelhead fishing in the country.

[Badfish740]

Originally Posted by Mtn-surveyor

one thing really nice about the Adirondacks is if you are in the Rural zone (8.5 acres)they have a special allowance for building a "primitive camp"...that's a cabin less than 500sf
with no plumbing and septic system. Composting toilets, privys etc are ok. That gets you a cabin up a lot cheaper.

Thanks for the info-I didn't know that about the Adirondacks. We had kind of shied away from them because of property taxes-I've heard they are quite high because of New York City. A trade-off of less restrictive regulation with regard to wastewater might be worth it though. There's nothing like that I'm aware of in Maine. Anything you build is going to need a full septic system up there these days.

[North Beach Person]

Originally Posted by Badfish740

I'd like to look into that a little more. We're in our early 30s with small kids, so right now we're looking for a place we can go strictly for recreation, but eventually we'll be looking for a place to retire, so we'd want to be able to either convert the cabin or build something elsewhere on the property.



All great advice-thanks! As for mineral rights, we don't really care about the cashing in on the gas rush-we missed the boat by at least 10 years, so we don't expect to get on it now. What I'm more concerned with is how owning the land but not the mineral rights affects how I use the land. For example, if I don't own the mineral rights and someone else leases them to a gas driller, do I have any recourse if the driller wants to put a pad right in front of my cabin?

To answer your last question, not much. But, most agreements are structured in such a way that the landowner will get some compensation. I'm more familiar with coal rights, but the last time my family's coal rights were stripped the land owner got a per ton payment.

They also had to restore the land and do cleanup when finished. The truth is that the property ended up better than it was after restoration.

[ki0eh]

It is difficult to generalize about how gas development would affect any given property due to numerous site-specific issues and non-uniform methods of severance in PA. Gas and coal could be different. You could wind up with a pipeline even well away from the gas shale areas. Just like private land, state land might or might not have some or all categories of mineral rights severed or leased. There is no uniformity.

[Badfish740]

Originally Posted by ki0eh

It is difficult to generalize about how gas development would affect any given property due to numerous site-specific issues and non-uniform methods of severance in PA. Gas and coal could be different. You could wind up with a pipeline even well away from the gas shale areas. Just like private land, state land might or might not have some or all categories of mineral rights severed or leased. There is no uniformity.

This is what gives me pause about PA, close as it may be. No gas in Maine, so no problems. You can see the northern lights too! It is disappointing though because other than the potential drilling issues, PA has everything we want including sensible gun laws-it's just daunting to think of the hassles one might have to deal with. I'm looking for property to be handed down to my children and their children's children.