What's with all the confederate flags?

[villageidiot1]

Originally Posted by Pine to Vine

Not clear at all why you quoted my post. You didn't answer any of my questions nor comment on my observations. Care to give it another go (they are bolded here for easy reference):

An interesting post. Let's start with the above. Are you implying that African Americans don't associate the flag with racist people and behavior? Who exactly do you think has "sold" African American citizens that they should protest the flag?

No where have I "logically" suggested that I would deny your right to fly this flag to your heart's content. Our tax supported institutions, however, adhere to a different standard as they "are derived from the consent of the governed." If you choose to fly your own flag, however, I feel fairly certain that most of us who see it would conclude you are a racist. Not necessarily because you are one, but because society generally associates the flag with racist people and behavior.

This seems a bit of a fairy tale. Given all the confederate flags I saw when I was in Somerset, it doesn't appear the issue "will mostly disappear" if we leave it alone. Who then should "drop the issue"?

You appear to be looking for someone with whom to argue. I'm not that person because I don't there is an issue or some kind of conspiracy. The Civil War ended 150 years ago, we no longer have slavery in this country, civil rights have progressed slowly but there is only so much that can be done with legislation, and laws and attitudes against formerly taboo subjects like interracial marriage and homosexuality have rapidly disappeared.

It is true that rural Pennsylvania has a lot of rednecks. I attended the meeting of my local Rural Electric Coop this evening and it was virtually all rednecks. I've lived and/or worked in Fayette, Somerset, Allegheny, Indiana and Westmoreland counties. There are rednecks in all of them, and they are proud of it. Do they think it is cool to display a Confederate flag? Sure they do. Are they racist? Maybe, to some extent. But our schools were never segregated. Brown v. Board of Education make little difference in rural Pennsylvania because the schools were already integrated. Black and whites worked side by side in the steel mills and coal mines. I grew up never seeing a "Whites only" or a "Colored" sign.

So you ask, "Who exactly do you think has "sold" African American citizens that they should protest the flag?" My response is a small group of both whites and blacks who want to create controversy. Most people have more important things to worry about

Your only other question is, "Who then should drop the issue?" The answer is obvious. Anyone who continues to turn this into an issue should drop it. Remember? You gave this thread the title, "What's with all the confederate flags?" What kind of response were you looking for?

[Pine to Vine]

Originally Posted by villageidiot1

You appear to be looking for someone with whom to argue. I'm not that person because I don't there is an issue or some kind of conspiracy. The Civil War ended 150 years ago, we no longer have slavery in this country, civil rights have progressed slowly but there is only so much that can be done with legislation, and laws and attitudes against formerly taboo subjects like interracial marriage and homosexuality have rapidly disappeared.

It is true that rural Pennsylvania has a lot of rednecks. I attended the meeting of my local Rural Electric Coop this evening and it was virtually all rednecks. I've lived and/or worked in Fayette, Somerset, Allegheny, Indiana and Westmoreland counties. There are rednecks in all of them, and they are proud of it. Do they think it is cool to display a Confederate flag? Sure they do. Are they racist? Maybe, to some extent. But our schools were never segregated. Brown v. Board of Education make little difference in rural Pennsylvania because the schools were already integrated. Black and whites worked side by side in the steel mills and coal mines. I grew up never seeing a "Whites only" or a "Colored" sign.

So you ask, "Who exactly do you think has "sold" African American citizens that they should protest the flag?" My response is a small group of both whites and blacks who want to create controversy. Most people haave more important things to worry about

Your only other question is, "Who then should drop the issue?" The answer is obvious. Anyone who continues to turn this into an issue should drop it. Remember? You gave this thread the title, "What's with all the confederate flags?" What kind of response were you looking for?

First of all, thanks for answering my questions. No, I am not looking for an argument. It's just that when someone expresses an opinion on CD, it's fair game to ask them to elaborate on it. I have a couple of statements of yours I will explore. First: The Civil War ended 150 years ago, we no longer have slavery in this country, civil rights have progressed slowly but there is only so much that can be done with legislation, and laws and attitudes against formerly taboo subjects like interracial marriage and homosexuality have rapidly disappeared.

I've found there is a general tendency of those in he majority to focus on the rate at which civil rights advance by people who already have those rights. For example: As white person in the early 1960s, some might marvel at the rate at which integration advances. "Just a few years ago, there was a colored drinking fountain. Now that's gone. Surely there will be more changes if black people are only patient." Well, it's easy to be patient when you are the person who must sit in the back of the bus or can't yet eat at any given lunch counter while waiting for society to catch up.

Here's a more modern version:"What more do those qu**rs want? We've given them marriage and immediately after they want to seek employment discrimination. Why can't they wait until all the dust settles?"

Here's the next: "Who exactly do you think has "sold" African American citizens that they should protest the flag?" My response is a small group of both whites and blacks who want to create controversy. Most people have more important things to worry about

On this, I think you are just plain wrong, not to mention, patronizing. For example, I assume you actually believe that the large numbers citizens of all races showed up to protest the government-sanctioned flag in SC had nothing better to worry about. If so, it must be a luxury to sit back and claim everything is alright . . . for other people. It is further luxury for a person to dismiss protests against offensive behavior when they themselves are not offended.

Finally there is this: "Who then should drop the issue?" The answer is obvious. Anyone who continues to turn this into an issue should drop it. Remember? You gave this thread the title, "What's with all the confederate flags?" What kind of response were you looking for?[

Well, I started this tread because I was genuinely puzzled. I have traveled extensively in this area through NJ to the east, Delmarva to the south and the Poconos to the north. Unlike those places, western PA is the only direction where I saw such an abundance of confederate flags, so I wondered "What's up with the state I live in?" I wondered if if it was a misplaced statement of disenfranchisment with the federal government, an open statement of prejudice, a combination of both, or something else.

The confederate flag flew over a "country" built upon a morally bankrupt set of values and behavior. I am left accepting that at least some measure flying this flag today is outright racism. For those who intentionally fly this flag to show some level of hatred of African Americans, quite a large percentage of us view this as a shameful practice carried out by sociopaths (or those whom you refer to merely as "rednecks").

[Gerania]

Pine to Vine, if you go to the Southern, Southwestern, counties in New Jersey, you'll definitely see battle flags. You really don't even have to go that far. There are rednecks in Camden and Burlington Counties. They may not hang the flag, but they might be wearing camo--and it isn't digital.

[CookieSkoon]

Originally Posted by Gerania

Pine to Vine, if you go to the Southern, Southwestern, counties in New Jersey, you'll definitely see battle flags. You really don't even have to go that far. There are rednecks in Camden and Burlington Counties. They may not hang the flag, but they might be wearing camo--and it isn't digital.

Even in northwestern Jersey.

[BLUE COLLAR]

Originally Posted by CookieSkoon

Even in northwestern Jersey.

\

I live in NW NJ and I am a Redneck,we do have some people flying Confederate flags,as well as the Gadsden flag and of course the American flag.In my mind the Confederate flag isn't about hate,it's a push-back to whats happening in our country.As CookieSkoon wrote,it's not a Southern thing,it's a rural thing.As a side note,I've never seen the American flag flying in front of any expensive houses,just modest houses,why do you think that is?

[Gerania]

Originally Posted by Gerania

Pine to Vine, if you go to the Southern, Southwestern, counties in New Jersey, you'll definitely see battle flags. You really don't even have to go that far. There are rednecks in Camden and Burlington Counties. They may not hang the flag, but they might be wearing camo--and it isn't digital.

Oops.

[Gerania]

Originally Posted by BLUE COLLAR

\

I live in NW NJ and I am a Redneck,we do have some people flying Confederate flags,as well as the Gadsden flag and of course the American flag.In my mind the Confederate flag isn't about hate,it's a push-back to whats happening in our country.As CookieSkoon wrote,it's not a Southern thing,it's a rural thing.As a side note,I've never seen the American flag flying in front of any expensive houses,just modest houses,why do you think that is?

What's expensive?

[maf763]

Originally Posted by BLUE COLLAR

\

I live in NW NJ and I am a Redneck,we do have some people flying Confederate flags,as well as the Gadsden flag and of course the American flag.In my mind the Confederate flag isn't about hate,it's a push-back to whats happening in our country.As CookieSkoon wrote,it's not a Southern thing,it's a rural thing.As a side note,I've never seen the American flag flying in front of any expensive houses,just modest houses,why do you think that is?

That's fine, but to the vast majority of other people it is, so no crying about how you might be perceived.

[CookieSkoon]

Originally Posted by maf763

That's fine, but to the vast majority of other people it is, so no crying about how you might be perceived.

I mean, that's not fair really. I'd like to think that as a species we've evolved to the point where things can be re-defined.

Besides, that flag really wasn't standing for hatred even in those times. A lot of southern soldiers fought against what they thought was a threat to their home, in their minds that flag meant freedom.

Also it's based on the Scottish flag.

In certain ways it stands as a symbol of independence far more than the national flag. The racist element was mostly shoe-horned in as a way to demonize it; the politicians and rich of the south who were racist and selfish were not a credit to their own cause, and sadly they enabled the negative connotations to be ingrained into the flag in question.

I think it's kind of sad that people have picked that one meaning out of the many to exclusively associate with that flag.

[toobusytoday]

As interesting as this conversation is, it's stopped being about Pennsylvanians that choose to fly the Confederate flag. Closed.