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Old 09-20-2015, 07:43 AM
 
Location: The canyon (with my pistols and knife)
14,169 posts, read 22,596,535 times
Reputation: 17328

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Geez. You could have used a state like North Carolina instead. Only 10% of non-Hispanic Whites voted for the Democratic candidate in Alabama compared to 26% in South Carolina. While one can argue that North Carolina only matches up favorably with Pennsylvania because "Yankees are moving there!" those Yankees, especially the White Yankees, are moving to the urban areas.

81% - Philadelphia County
61% - Orange
61% - Lackawanna County
59% - Durham
53% - Erie County
53% - Buncombe
50% - Montgomery County
49% - Allegheny County
49% - Delaware County
48% - Luzerne County
47% - Jackson
46% - Watauga
46% - Bucks County
46% - Lehigh County
46% - Monroe County
46% - Northampton County
45% - Madison County
45% - Centre County
44% - PENNSYLVANIA
44% - Chatham
44% - Swain
43% - Carbon County
43% - Chester County
43% - Mercer County
43% - Yancey
42% - Haywood
42% - Wake
42% - Berks County
41% - Dare
41% - Beaver County
41% - Clinton County
41% - Fayette County
41% - Lawrence County
41% - Wyoming County
40% - Columbia County
40% - Elk County
39% - New Hanover
39% - Mecklenburg
39% - Transylvania
39% - Dauphin County
39% - Schuylkill County
39% - Warren County
39% - Washington County
37% - Greene County
37% - Pike County
36% - Polk County
36% - Cambria County
36% - Crawford County
36% - Indiana County
36% - Montour County
36% - Northumberland County
36% - Susquehanna County
35% - Guilford
35% - Cumberland County
35% - Wayne County
34% - Forsyth
34% - Macon
34% - Henderson
34% - Hyde
34% - Burke
34% - Bradford County
34% - Lancaster County
34% - Westmoreland County
33% - Ashe
33% - Venango County
32% - McDowell
32% - Cameron County
32% - Sullivan County
32% - York County
31% - Brunswick
31% - Allegany
31% - Adams County
31% - Clearfield County
31% - McKean County
30% - Pitt
30% - Lebanon County
29% - Pasquotank
29% - Anson
29% - Blair County
29% - Butler County
29% - Tioga County
29% - Union County
28% - Clay
28% - Surry
28% - Graham
28% - Warren
28% - Currituck
28% - Catawba
28% - Armstrong County
28% - Clarion County
28% - Snyder County
27% - Caldwell
27% - Lee
27% - Alamance
27% - Carrabus
27% - Franklin
27% - Lycoming County
27% - Perry County
26% - Moore
26% - Granville
26% - Cherokee
25% - Hertford
25% - Scotland
25% - Pender
25% - Wilkes
25%- Carteret
25% - Montgomery
25% - Lincoln
25% - Vance
25% - Richmond
25% - Chowan
25% - Franklin County
25% - Huntingdon County
24% - Iredell
24% - Rutherford
24% - Pamlico
24% - Avery
24% - Alexander
24% - Gates
24% - Mitchell
24% - Gaston
24% - Jefferson County
24% - Juniata County
24% - Potter County
24% - Somerset County
23% - Union
23% - Rowan
23% - Halifax
23% - Perquimans
23% - Rockinghman
23% - Johnston
23% - Davie
23% - Mifflin County
22% - Craven
22% - Cumberland
22% - Tyrell
22% - Person
22% - Davidson
22% - Forest County
21% - Yadkin
21% - Cleveland
21% - Stanley
21% - Northampton
20% - Harnett
20% - Beaufort
20% Edgecombe
20% - Hoke
20% -Wilson
20% - Bedford County
19% - Camden
19% - Columbus
19% - Caswell
19% - Randolph
19% - Nash
19% - Onslow
18% - Fulton County
18% - Bladen
17% - Duplin
17% - Martin
17% - Robeson
16% - Jones
16% - Washington
15% - Wayne
15% - Greene
14% - Lenoir
Great, it's worth noting that North Carolina has long been considered forward-thinking for a Southern state. Furthermore, James Carville never compared rural Pennsylvania to North Carolina. He compared it to Alabama, and hard data proves him dead wrong, especially considering he was analyzing voting trends. And though North Carolina compares more closely to Pennsylvania at the county level than Alabama does, it doesn't change the fact that 35 of the 50 counties with the highest white voting percentage for Barack Obama in 2012 belong to Pennsylvania, and 42 of the 50 counties with the lowest white voting percentage for Obama belong to North Carolina.

The only real difference between North Carolina and Alabama is that North Carolina has more urban areas, and, thus, more counties near the top of the list. On that note, the county seat of Orange County is Chapel Hill; the county seat of Durham County is Durham, and the county seat of Buncombe County is Asheville. That's two college towns and a hippie enclave, respectively, and yet, those three counties were comparable with stodgy old Scranton and Erie. Face it, white voters in Pennsylvania are still proven to be more liberal than white voters in one of the most forward-thinking Southern states.

 
Old 09-20-2015, 08:20 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,897 posts, read 34,410,920 times
Reputation: 14981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi View Post
Great, it's worth noting that North Carolina has long been considered forward-thinking for a Southern state.
Chapel Hill and Durham have long been noted for their liberalism. But most of North Carolina is not like Chapel Hill and Durham.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi View Post
Furthermore, James Carville never compared rural Pennsylvania to North Carolina. He compared it to Alabama, and hard data proves him dead wrong, especially considering he was analyzing voting trends.
I'm not James Carville.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi View Post
And though North Carolina compares more closely to Pennsylvania at the county level than Alabama does, it doesn't change the fact that 35 of the 50 counties with the highest white voting percentage for Barack Obama in 2012 belong to Pennsylvania, and 42 of the 50 counties with the lowest white voting percentage for Obama belong to North Carolina.
That's not really a good way to look at it, imo. Yeah, the Pennsylvania counties rank higher, but that's not saying much if the difference between a higher and lower ranked county is only one or two percentage points. If you analyze the entire rural White vote, the two are not so dissimilar.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi View Post
The only real difference between North Carolina and Alabama is that North Carolina has more urban areas, and, thus, more counties near the top of the list.
No. The real difference between North Carolina and Alabama is that the rural areas are far more conservative in the latter.

Alabama and Mississippi have always been much more conservative than the Carolinas. People tend to dump most of "The South," particularly the Lower South, into one big bucket, but there's a lot of heterogeneity in the Deep South too.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Craziaskowboi View Post
On that note, the county seat of Orange County is Chapel Hill; the county seat of Durham County is Durham, and the county seat of Buncombe County is Asheville. That's two college towns and a hippie enclave, respectively, and yet, those three counties were comparable with stodgy old Scranton and Erie. Face it, white voters in Pennsylvania are still proven to be more liberal than white voters in one of the most forward-thinking Southern states.
Those aren't rural counties. Did you not see the part where I said I was comparing rural counties? Whites in Pennsylvania overall are more left-leaning because there are more White people in urban areas in Pennsylvania. The White vote in the rural areas, on the other hand, is comparable.

BTW, I'm not arguing that there isn't a difference in urban areas too. I'm arguing that there's a significant contrast in political attitudes between most of Pennsylvania and the Delaware Valley that can't be solely attributed to an urban/rural divide.

Last edited by BajanYankee; 09-20-2015 at 08:37 AM..
 
Old 09-20-2015, 08:34 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,897 posts, read 34,410,920 times
Reputation: 14981
Also, I'm not sure how people go to Atlanta, Durham, Asheville or the Outer Banks and then conclude that "Oh, this state is forward-thinking." There's more to those states than those places.
 
Old 09-20-2015, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
7,249 posts, read 10,499,059 times
Reputation: 8758
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
I literally laughed out loud when I read this. Literally. "And here I thought the fundamental way to avoid racism is not to subscribe to outrageous generalizations and stereotypes..." What are these "outrageous generalizations and stereotypes" I've subscribed to? That's nice rhetoric but it sounds nearly as smug as an "All Lives Matter" retort. This discussion has been largely factual so far so I'm not even sure why you felt compelled to write something like that.
I didn't mean to be smug, and I'm really trying to stick to a fact-based argument, but I just honestly don't know what you're trying to prove overall.

We can agree that Pennsylvania has had different settlement patterns than other Northeastern states, has a higher Republican-voting population in its rural areas (even though, according to the ANES data, Pennsylvania Republicans are more moderate than those of the vast majority of states, thereby undercutting the argument that rural white Republicans are exactly the same across all states), and that confederate flag sightings are nothing new in odd places like PA.

But what does all of this mean? There are just a lot of different factors and nuances here. That's all I'm trying to say. It's anyone's guess why they're displayed by people who have absolutely no connection to their history.
 
Old 09-20-2015, 11:17 AM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
7,249 posts, read 10,499,059 times
Reputation: 8758
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
BTW, I'm not arguing that there isn't a difference in urban areas too. I'm arguing that there's a significant contrast in political attitudes between most of Pennsylvania and the Delaware Valley that can't be solely attributed to an urban/rural divide.
If anything, though, throwing politics into the equation makes it more muddled and not clear. The extent to which you've tried to demonstrate that higher Republican voting rates in rural Pennsylvania versus other rural Northern regions really doesn't explain a heck of a lot. Again, people vote for a certain political party for a multitude of different reasons.
 
Old 09-20-2015, 02:23 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,897 posts, read 34,410,920 times
Reputation: 14981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
I didn't mean to be smug, and I'm really trying to stick to a fact-based argument, but I just honestly don't know what you're trying to prove overall.
Okay, so you can't identify these "outrageous generalizations and stereotypes" I've subscribed to?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
We can agree that Pennsylvania has had different settlement patterns than other Northeastern states, has a higher Republican-voting population in its rural areas (even though, according to the ANES data, Pennsylvania Republicans are more moderate than those of the vast majority of states, thereby undercutting the argument that rural white Republicans are exactly the same across all states), and that confederate flag sightings are nothing new in odd places like PA.
I'm not sure what Republican voters in Bucks County have to do with Republican voters in rural Pennsylvania, but okay.

I stated a basic fact: Pennsylvania voters, irrespective of party affiliation, are more socially conservative than Virginia voters and about on par with Florida voters. You could look at that a couple of ways. You could say that attitudes on social issues are more or less uniform throughout the state. Or you could say that there are voters outside of the urban areas whose conservatism is skewing the overall score upwards. I don't see too many other scenarios.

I'm more of the belief that voters elsewhere (largely Southwestern PA) are largely skewing the social conservatism score upwards (similar to the way Southern Virginia or Northern Florida skew the scores in those states upwards). You could very well disaggregate the ANES data and find that Montgomery County voters are basically the same as Washington County voters (or that a Fairfax County voter is the same as a Henrico County voter). But I doubt that.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
But what does all of this mean? There are just a lot of different factors and nuances here. That's all I'm trying to say. It's anyone's guess why they're displayed by people who have absolutely no connection to their history.
I thought your point was that there were no cultural disconnects between the Delaware/Lehigh Valley and Southwestern/Western PA.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
You do realize that migration patterns have moved from East to West, and thus prior to settling Western PA, and points West and South, these migrants started in Eastern Pennsylvania? Yet, according to you, these areas are so culturally disconnected.
I simply don't agree with that point. If Pennsylvania was more socially conservative than Virginia was in 2000, I'd say that has more to do with its western counties than it does its larger population centers in the eastern third of the state.
 
Old 09-20-2015, 02:30 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
31,897 posts, read 34,410,920 times
Reputation: 14981
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
If anything, though, throwing politics into the equation makes it more muddled and not clear. The extent to which you've tried to demonstrate that higher Republican voting rates in rural Pennsylvania versus other rural Northern regions really doesn't explain a heck of a lot. Again, people vote for a certain political party for a multitude of different reasons.
Really? Because when whenever we're talking about the South in these forums, politics always makes things clear.

An Alabama County votes 83% Republican. It's conservative.

A Pennsylvania County votes 83% Republican. There's more to it than that.

Confederate flags common (documented) in Alabama. They are racists.

Confederate flags common (documented) in Western Pennsylvania. It's complicated.

And it's not simply a matter of rural Pennsylvania being more conservative than other parts of the Northeast. It is really more similar to Appalachia in that regard. So no, I'm not really surprised that Confederate flags would be common there (or other parts of the Lower Midwest).
 
Old 09-21-2015, 01:32 AM
 
2,013 posts, read 1,600,299 times
Reputation: 2741
The simple fact is that the people flying these flags know perfectly well that it is racist. They may claim it stands for rebellion against the government, but they are full of it.

Go north of Clarks Summit and you'll see it all over northern Wyoming, Bradford, Susquehanna counties. People also sport it around Carbon and Schuykill counties. Most of these people don't understand the concept of states' rights and have never lived south of the Mason-Dixon. Spend some time around them and you'll hear exactly what their opinions are of minorities.
 
Old 09-21-2015, 06:03 PM
 
24,343 posts, read 22,903,146 times
Reputation: 14924
It's silly to think that all people who fly the confederate flag are racists or even rednecks. Probably a small percentage, maybe on a par with the number of Dallas Cowboys fans in Pa who are also racists or people who like country music and are also racists. Its a self perception thing. They want to be recognized as good old boys, rebels who won't be told what to do. I wish they'd find better symbols, but they're free to do what they want.
I saw a rebel flag on someone's garage door the other day here in the far far Philly suburb regions. That makes one I've seen locally the last several months. One.
"Pensyltucky". Take a look at the ignorant radical who initially coined that phrase and that pretty much discounts it. The greater Harrisburg area, particularly east of it, is the political soul of the state, the place where party takes second place to the issues and where the most informed voters reside. And the most racist area of the state would be none other than Philadelphia. Not many rednecks there.
 
Old 09-21-2015, 07:39 PM
 
1,303 posts, read 1,805,518 times
Reputation: 2486
I drive around rural Pennsylvania all the time. Even in the small towns where guns and churches rule, people tend to be live and let live. I never found anywhere in Pa to be overtly political. PA is definitely not NYC, Portland, or the Baptist Bible Belt. Strangely enough, the one place in PA that seemed overtly political to me was Somerset, PA. Lots of confederate flags, although I did see a few gay flags. Don't know why this might be.
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