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Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
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This thread is dumb, frankly.
PA is a little like all of its neighbors. It's more similar to upstate NY overall than Ohio or WV I'd say but that doesn't mean it isn't a bit like every neighbor. That's most states. That's the way of things.
If anything east Ohio and northern WV have more similarities to the inland northeast than vice-versa. In other words, they are more like PA/western NY than NY and PA are like them.
I think there's an ulterior motive here. I think this is all more hot air trying to distance PA from the northeast because for some reason, for some misguided and ignorant reason, the term "northeastern" has become an insult.
Stop it. Just stop. This northern shame/shaming is ridiculous.
Stop it. Just stop. This northern shame/shaming is ridiculous.
Actually, I think it was triggered by the election results.
Pennsylvania has a long tradition of political centrism - neither its Democrats nor its Republicans hew to their respective parties' extremes, with occasional exceptions like Rick Santorum.
In national elections, however, it has generally voted like other Northeastern states, which is to say, the Democrats carry it. Not this time. Hence the hand-wringing.
The margin's so narrow, though, that I suspect it doesn't say much about the state's tradition of centrism. To assess its health, a subject beyond the scope of this thread, we probably need to look towards Harrisburg instead.
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,675,688 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon
This thread is dumb, frankly.
PA is a little like all of its neighbors. It's more similar to upstate NY overall than Ohio or WV I'd say but that doesn't mean it isn't a bit like every neighbor. That's most states. That's the way of things.
If anything east Ohio and northern WV have more similarities to the inland northeast than vice-versa. In other words, they are more like PA/western NY than NY and PA are like them.
I think there's an ulterior motive here. I think this is all more hot air trying to distance PA from the northeast because for some reason, for some misguided and ignorant reason, the term "northeastern" has become an insult.
Stop it. Just stop. This northern shame/shaming is ridiculous.
The northern tier of counties in PA are similar to Upstate NY. This thread is concerning the election. Philadelphia is very MidAtlantic. Look up The Great Philadelphia Wagon Road, which was one of the most important migration paths in colonial America. Look at the migration of the Scotch Irish & Germans. They went south, then west.
As late as the 1960s the areas of the country were broken down into more subgroups, based on the historical migration patterns. NY state was in New England & the MidAtlantic & North Carolina was in the South & the MidAtlantic.
The new & improved northeast & southeast cause lots of questions & arguments. Look at the voting patterns in all of the states mentioned then decide what state Pennsylvania is most like. Nothing about that is personal. There is no reason to shame anybody who gave an honest, on topic response.
Southeastern Pennsylvania is definitely part of the Northeast. Most of the counties that have the Delaware River as one border are as well, thanks in part to an influx of New Yorkers seeking homes they could afford. I'd also throw the Lehigh Valley and Northeast Pennsylvania into the Northeast too; they have some similarities with upstate New York, and the railroad that called Scranton home was a major commuter route into New York City via its busy terminal in Hoboken (and still is). I'd also suggest that the culture of Northeast Pennsylvania coal country isn't quite the same as that of Pennsylvania's other coal mining regions (and the mining of anthracite - the hard coal that kept the gown of the Lackawanna's mascot, Phoebe Snow, white - died before bituminous coal mining did).
Central Pennsylvania - Reading, Lancaster, York and the Susquehanna valley - is a borderland of sorts. Its southern fringes have become an exurb of Baltimore, but it's not really Appalachia either.
The "Alabama in between" part of Pennsylvania is entirely in Appalachia (though we use the word "Alleghenies" to refer to the segment of that mountain chain that lies within the state). That's the area that has a lot in common with West Virginia and parts of Ohio. You might note that Appalachia proper has almost no large cities; the terrain is hostile to them. The exception to this rule is Pittsburgh, and politically and culturally, it's likewise an exception to the Appalachian rule.
Anyone care to refine or dispute this assessment?
By "Northeastern" it seems to imply of or relating to the urban corridor, or having social and economic ties to a city where Acela stops, stronger than just resource extraction (or maybe the odd college or prison). Maine, north of Bangor might not be Northeastern; New York State, west of Cooperstown might not be either.
Truckers know the border of the Northeast as Carlisle, PA, which has broadened into a zone of borderland monster warehouses along the I-81 and I-78 corridors extending roughly from Harrisonburg, VA north to Scranton, PA. This is the line between where congestion rules to the south and east, and where more open space prevails north and west.
The term "The Alleghenies" can be confusing.
The physiographic barrier labeled the Allegheny Front (or local extensions, such as Catskill Front or Cumberland Escarpment) extends from near Albany, NY, southwesterly to past Chattanooga, TN. In PA, the barrier enfolds Scranton to include the Pocono Plateau to the east, the "Endless Mountains" region to the north, the now-labeled "Pennsylvania Wilds" region north of Williamsport and State College, and more dramatically the highest portions west from Altoona, Bedford, and Cumberland MD.
Physiographically, the mountain areas south and east, but west and north of Harrisburg, north of Allentown, and either side of the Delaware Water Gap forms the clunkily named Valley and Ridge physiographic province, or perhaps more poetically the Tiltrock Country.
The tourist board around Altoona blithely included in its "The Alleghenies" The Alleghenies both Allegheny Plateau and Valley & Ridge areas. Yet, the geological differences somewhat affect social and economic organization. The shale gas "fracking" occurs not in the Valley & Ridge "foldbelt," but in the Allegheny Plateau proper. Most coal eroded out of the Ridge & Valley, other than anthracite, and in the peculiar outlier in many ways Broad Top coal field in the townships that meet the Bedford/Fulton/Huntingdon county tri-point.
As others here have observed, the south-easternmost ridge of the Ridge and Valley (called Blue Mountain most of the time in PA, sometimes Kittatinny Ridge, locally North Mountain by Carlisle) in PA forms the border between the economically more vibrant areas to its south and east, and the relatively shrinking areas north and west.
In political terms the McMansion exurbs are becoming the new suburbs, with the more Republican-leaning folks still tied economically to the Acela corridor moving further out. As mentioned, southern York County and even Adams County are tied more to Baltimore. Some escapees from the "People's Republic of Maryland" wind up in Franklin County. Harrisburg self-sorts into the "East Shore" Dauphin County and the less ethnically diverse "West Shore" Cumberland County (bleeding into northern York, and Perry counties), although the suburban and rural townships of Dauphin remain reflexively Republican too.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,539,156 times
Reputation: 6253
Quote:
Originally Posted by southbound_295
The northern tier of counties in PA are similar to Upstate NY. This thread is concerning the election. Philadelphia is very MidAtlantic. Look up The Great Philadelphia Wagon Road, which was one of the most important migration paths in colonial America. Look at the migration of the Scotch Irish & Germans. They went south, then west.
As late as the 1960s the areas of the country were broken down into more subgroups, based on the historical migration patterns. NY state was in New England & the MidAtlantic & North Carolina was in the South & the MidAtlantic.
The new & improved northeast & southeast cause lots of questions & arguments. Look at the voting patterns in all of the states mentioned then decide what state Pennsylvania is most like. Nothing about that is personal. There is no reason to shame anybody who gave an honest, on topic response.
Look I've just seen this kind of thing too much on this site. People seem to hate being northern.
It's not just northern PA that is similar to upstate NY. A whole hell of a lot of PA is similar to upstate NY, I know, I've experienced it first hand. Erie is like Buffalo/Rochester, Williamsport is like Elmira and Binghamton, cities in NY like Ithaca and Corning have many smaller scale commonalities with Pittsburgh, small town NY and small town PA are virtually identical through the majority of both states. Even Philadelphia and NYC are undeniably related to one another by cousin Jersey.
I've been all the way down to Altoona and met people with family in upstate NY and guess what? I didn't stick out as having some abnormal accent or culture by comparison either. Now when I am in Tennessee I stick out. THAT'S a state with nothing in common with upstate NY outside of topography. When I visit Louisiana I stick out. When I even get all the way out to Indiana I start to stick out. Not in PA.
It pays to socialize with strangers you know. You get a better scope of things. Next time you stop for gas have a short chat with somebody if the opportunity arises.
So PA is covered in mountains to a greater degree than NY... and that's the only difference I can see. Oh wait, license plates! OOOOOOOOH!
I can't really tell you how many times I've drawn perfect parallels only to have people stomp madly and say "no yer wrong because 200 hundred years ago a guy went south". If I even dare talk about flora and fauna it seems to send some people into convulsions of internet rage.
Fact is even northern WV is like parts of upstate NY, so is eastern Ohio. Similarities in modern times run farther than people want them to. Families have spread out, media this, internet that, cars, etc. I've explained this so many times it has become painfully tedious. It doesn't matter so much what people did in the 1800's anymore. Has anybody noticed that we are more than a decade past year 2000 yet?
So PA is covered in mountains to a greater degree than NY... and that's the only difference I can see. Oh wait, license plates! OOOOOOOOH!
Also buying guns, liquor, rural wells, and septic systems. Plus, inspecting the vehicle. And, the relative weight of property tax.
In central/western NY and northern tier PA the barn is more likely to have a gambrel roof with water running off the eaves, foundation walls extend to the four corners of the hayloft, and frame house set back from road 75'-100' and parallel to the road behind a row of sturdy maples. The small town will have a row of churches of mainline Protestant denominations such as UCC (formerly Congregational), Baptist (not Southern), Presbyterian, and United Methodist (formerly Methodist Episcopal), possibly on a Green or along Church Street, with the Catholic church on a side street or maybe the main commercial street (not Church Street).
In central/southern PA, the bank barn typically has a single pitched roof with gutters and roof leaders, brick house set 10'-30' off the road and crazily angled with respect to it, its occupants will likely "redd it up" weekly, and maybe there will be a chestnut stump. The small town might have one favored denomination on the square (or further west, "diamond" regardless of shape) (maybe Episcopal, more likely Presbyterian, in west-central PA even Catholic maybe), while others such as Brethren, ELCA, and United Methodist (formerly Otterbein) are scattered on whatever corners they could get.
Location: Appalachian New York, Formerly Louisiana
4,409 posts, read 6,539,156 times
Reputation: 6253
Quote:
Originally Posted by ki0eh
Also buying guns, liquor, rural wells, and septic systems. Plus, inspecting the vehicle. And, the relative weight of property tax.
In central/western NY and northern tier PA the barn is more likely to have a gambrel roof with water running off the eaves, foundation walls extend to the four corners of the hayloft, and frame house set back from road 75'-100' and parallel to the road behind a row of sturdy maples. The small town will have a row of churches of mainline Protestant denominations such as UCC (formerly Congregational), Baptist (not Southern), Presbyterian, and United Methodist (formerly Methodist Episcopal), possibly on a Green or along Church Street, with the Catholic church on a side street or maybe the main commercial street (not Church Street).
In central/southern PA, the bank barn typically has a single pitched roof with gutters and roof leaders, brick house set 10'-30' off the road and crazily angled with respect to it, its occupants will likely "redd it up" weekly, and maybe there will be a chestnut stump. The small town might have one favored denomination on the square (or further west, "diamond" regardless of shape) (maybe Episcopal, more likely Presbyterian, in west-central PA even Catholic maybe), while others such as Brethren, ELCA, and United Methodist (formerly Otterbein) are scattered on whatever corners they could get.
Very few people still say "redd up" these days.
What's this about rural wells though? NY has that does PA not? The house my grandparents lived in had two of them.
The rest of that first paragraph is the normal differences between any two states. I said similar not exactly the same.
But I guess I am always wrong about this. I lied, when I travel into PA for more than twenty miles it's like going to Mars. Everybody there has southern accents and sips sweet tea while they point at the wayward New Yorker and laugh at how different I am from them. After all we have nothing in common because barns.
Interesting that Nate Silver on 538 blogs stated that PA would be the tipping point to the election. He was right but called the state for Clinton instead of Trump. PA gave trump the electoral college.
PA is such a large state where the western reaches are disconnected from the eastern side. The argument that Philly metro should break away and pretty much become its own state has some truth. The rest of the state is really unlike Philly. The rest of PA has a mix of midwestern and Appalachian culture. There are similiaries to upstate New York, however Pittsburgh is more tied and culturally similar to Ohio, West Virginia and possibly the far reaches of western Md. Erie is much like northeast Ohio and western New York. If you had no idea of state borders it would be difficult to tell where western ny, northwest pa and northeast Ohio begin and end. The same thing can be said with the Pittsburgh area with West Virginia and eastern Ohio.
You could blindfold somebody and drop them in the middle of Steubenville Ohio and they could mistake it for Weirton WV or McKeesport pa without the rivers and state lines it looks and feels the same.
PA is a rust belt state. The rust belt states are West Virginia, Ohio, Michigan, Indiana, Wisconsin and Pennsylvania. All face the same problems economically and people desiring the same government fix to perk up their dying cities and towns
Location: The place where the road & the sky collide
23,814 posts, read 34,675,688 times
Reputation: 10256
Quote:
Originally Posted by CookieSkoon
Look I've just seen this kind of thing too much on this site. People seem to hate being northern.
It's not just northern PA that is similar to upstate NY. A whole hell of a lot of PA is similar to upstate NY, I know, I've experienced it first hand. Erie is like Buffalo/Rochester, Williamsport is like Elmira and Binghamton, cities in NY like Ithaca and Corning have many smaller scale commonalities with Pittsburgh, small town NY and small town PA are virtually identical through the majority of both states. Even Philadelphia and NYC are undeniably related to one another by cousin Jersey.
I've been all the way down to Altoona and met people with family in upstate NY and guess what? I didn't stick out as having some abnormal accent or culture by comparison either. Now when I am in Tennessee I stick out. THAT'S a state with nothing in common with upstate NY outside of topography. When I visit Louisiana I stick out. When I even get all the way out to Indiana I start to stick out. Not in PA.
It pays to socialize with strangers you know. You get a better scope of things. Next time you stop for gas have a short chat with somebody if the opportunity arises.
So PA is covered in mountains to a greater degree than NY... and that's the only difference I can see. Oh wait, license plates! OOOOOOOOH!
I can't really tell you how many times I've drawn perfect parallels only to have people stomp madly and say "no yer wrong because 200 hundred years ago a guy went south". If I even dare talk about flora and fauna it seems to send some people into convulsions of internet rage.
Fact is even northern WV is like parts of upstate NY, so is eastern Ohio. Similarities in modern times run farther than people want them to. Families have spread out, media this, internet that, cars, etc. I've explained this so many times it has become painfully tedious. It doesn't matter so much what people did in the 1800's anymore. Has anybody noticed that we are more than a decade past year 2000 yet?
It isn't just the northern tier of PA.
Well. . .you're angry, aren't you.
Look, hon, you can find the same names in SE PA, South Jersey, right down through VA /WV, into the NC piedmont because that's where most of several groups travelled, leaving family members along the way. You can track some of those family names smack across PA into Ohio & Indiana, depending on when the family groups decided to move on. Why would I know that? Because I tracked my own families doing just that. I also tracked other families going from New England, through NY state & eventually ending up in Michigan. Michigan was the outlier. . .
Regardless, this was about the election. Look at the maps. They are available. You can even find them in red, blue, & purple.
You don't know squat about me. I do socialize with people wherever I go. Your comment was apparently intended to put me in my place. It just made you look angry.
What's this about rural wells though? NY has that does PA not? The house my grandparents lived in had two of them.
The rest of that first paragraph is the normal differences between any two states. I said similar not exactly the same.
But I guess I am always wrong about this. I lied, when I travel into PA for more than twenty miles it's like going to Mars. Everybody there has southern accents and sips sweet tea while they point at the wayward New Yorker and laugh at how different I am from them. After all we have nothing in common because barns.
Read what I wrote again, the implication is that the barns change about 50 miles in.
Private residential wells in PA are only regulated to the point that a licensed well driller needs to report them to the PA Geological Survey. There are no qualifications to become a licensed well driller. No 5 gpm minimum or coliform test as in NY state.
My in-laws were heard to say "redd up" last week, and come to think of it, served sweet tea too.
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