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You have a 1998 perception of downtown Pittsburgh my friend. Downtown Pittsburgh has grown from 3,600 people in 2010 to nearly 16,000 in 2017 (Density changing from 5,800 ppsm to 26,000 ppsm). If you actually believe it dies at 6 pm, think about this: center city had a population density of 27,000 ppsm in 2010, and did it die then? No. Of course its gained alot aince 2010 as well, but saying downtown Pittsburgh is dead as 6 pm is ludacris.There have been over 100 new restraunts open in the last 7 years as well.
You know Philadelphia very well, but know next to nothing about Pittsburgh except stats you read online. I live 1 mile from downtown and I've been to center city 17 times this year alone. It's certainly busier than downtown Pittsburgh, but it's a top 5 CBD nationwide. Downtown Pittsburgh is top 10.
Also, Pitt is a superior school to anything in Philadelphia outside of Penn. Drexel and Temple aren't that great - more on a Duquesne level, sorry. Villanova is on Pitts level, but is way out the mainline and not in the city whatsoever. The actually make it a point in media that they are not from Philadelphia.
Thanks for updating me on the population stats for downtown Pittsburgh.
I helped that guy move to Green Tree in 2010, so it's relevant for me as well.
I think that a similar number of people lived in downtown Kansas City in 2014, the year I went back home to write that Next City feature on the Power and Light District, so I suspect I would see a similar level of activity in the Triangle to what I witnessed there.
In Kansas City, though, most of the activity was either in the P&L District or the Crossroads Arts District just south of the downtown core. (Would the Strip District be the Pittsburgh analogue to the latter?). Elsewhere, crickets.
I like Pittsburgh a lot, but as a decade plus transplant, I can't be a homer when discussing downtowns, even adjusted for size.
Pittsburgh has, in some senses, a very unusual downtown for a rust belt city, in that it has very few surface parking lots, a downtown office market which saw no net decrease since the 1950s, and widespread use of mass transit for commuting even among the professional class. One way it's pretty typical, however, is during the mid 20th century the area was largely emptied of residents, and the surrounding zones (modern day North Shore, Lower Strip District, Lower Hill, and Uptown, had their dense rowhouse fabric demolished, replaced by a mixture of institutional structures, industry, and parking lots. This has begun to be dealt with, but the city has a lot of work yet to do to fully erase this "ring of ruin."
In contrast, Philly basically didn't have a CBD to speak of until the 1980s - partially due to the height limit, and partially due to the commuter tax structure pushing many office jobs into the suburbs. Center City thus pretty uniquely remained a mixed-use area with lots of intact residential neighborhoods. Some buildings were lost due to neglect or urban renewal, but nowhere near as much as Pittsburgh (and with the exception of 676 and 95 by the waterfront, the area was spared highways). As a result when Philly finally began developing a true CBD area it ended up with a very unique configuration, where dense 19th century residential neighborhoods are only a 5-10 minute walk from skyscrapers.
As I've said in the past, the two primary ways in which Pittsburgh outshines Philly is a much healthier employment market within city limits, and a much better ratio of nice neighborhood to ghetto. Due to sheer size, Philly obviously has more middle class and gentrified neighborhoods than Pittsburgh, but if you compared Pittsburgh to say Baltimore (which is twice our size) the population in the middle-class portions of the city is basically identical.
Thanks for updating me on the population stats for downtown Pittsburgh.
I helped that guy move to Green Tree in 2010, so it's relevant for me as well.
I think that a similar number of people lived in downtown Kansas City in 2014, the year I went back home to write that Next City feature on the Power and Light District, so I suspect I would see a similar level of activity in the Triangle to what I witnessed there.
In Kansas City, though, most of the activity was either in the P&L District or the Crossroads Arts District just south of the downtown core. (Would the Strip District be the Pittsburgh analogue to the latter?). Elsewhere, crickets.
What is considered downtown Kansas City is 6 square miles. Downtown Pittsburgh is 0.6 square miles - it's far more dense.
You have a 1998 perception of downtown Pittsburgh my friend. Downtown Pittsburgh has grown from 3,600 people in 2010 to nearly 16,000 in 2017 (Density changing from 5,800 ppsm to 26,000 ppsm). If you actually believe it dies at 6 pm, think about this: center city had a population density of 27,000 ppsm in 2010, and did it die then? No. Of course its gained alot aince 2010 as well, but saying downtown Pittsburgh is dead as 6 pm is ludacris.There have been over 100 new restraunts open in the last 7 years as well.
You know Philadelphia very well, but know next to nothing about Pittsburgh except stats you read online. I live 1 mile from downtown and I've been to center city 17 times this year alone. It's certainly busier than downtown Pittsburgh, but it's a top 5 CBD nationwide. Downtown Pittsburgh is top 10.
Also, Pitt is a superior school to anything in Philadelphia outside of Penn. Drexel and Temple aren't that great - more on a Duquesne level, sorry. Villanova is on Pitts level, but is way out the mainline and not in the city whatsoever. The actually make it a point in media that they are not from Philadelphia.
I was not the person who said Downtown Pittsburgh was dead. I also agreed that Downtown Pittsburgh is not dead after 6PM. It's certainly much better than it was even a couple of year ago. I was simply stating that compared to Center City Philadelphia, yes, Downtown Pittsburgh will still feel dead. I was in Downtown Pittsburgh last September, so stop acting like I have no clue. In the same time frame, from 2010 to 2016, Center City went from 57,000 residents, to over 100,000 residents, in 3 square miles. That's 1/3 the population of Pittsburgh. Expand to Girard to the north and Washington to the South, and the population ballooned to 183,000+ residents, which is over half of the entire population of Pittsburgh, in 7 square miles. These two are just on completely different levels.
Center City is definitely top 5 in Downtown, but I don't think Pittsburgh is top 10 Downtown quite yet. If you think it's a top 10 Downtown, you haven't traveled much. The amount of office space is nice and the growing restaurants are nice, but it's still pretty lacking in restaurants, nightlife, shopping, parks, etc. It has really nice bones, and the potential is definitely there, but there are still quite a few Downtowns which are better than Downtown Pittsburgh:
Manhattan, Chicago, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Boston, Brooklyn, DC, Los Angeles, Seattle, Miami, San Antonio, Austin, Denver, Nashville, Portland, Baltimore, Kansas City, Atlanta, Minneapolis, New Orleans and Detroit are all currently better Downtowns than Pittsburgh.
It's just the way it is. Penn ranks higher than CMU.
Villanova ranks higher than Pitt - IDK why you're saying Villanova is "all the way out on the Main Line." Villanova is 11 miles from City Hall, which is closer than Chestnut Hill or parts of Northeast Philly are to City Hall. Also, if you drove out along Lancaster Ave from the City to Philadelphia, you wouldn't knew you ever left the city unless you knew better. I also don't know what you're talking about with Villanova "not considering themselves Philadelphia," as all I see is that they DO consider themselves Philadelphia actually. They consider themselves a part of the "City 6." Google it.
Pittsburgher's seem to have this weird perception that once you get to City limits, you hit an impenetrable force field which you can't leave. American cities extend far beyond their boundaries. A place like the Main Line is much more a part of the city limits of Philadelphia, than some parts of Houston or Phoenix city limits are apart of those cities. Anybody who thinks Phoenix is a larger city than Philadelphia is kidding themselves. I know that Pittsburgh doesn't have much of a "region" outside of the city limits, but MSA or urban area is really the best way to measure the true size of a city.
Drexel and Temple rank higher than Duquesne.
Also, keep an eye on Jefferson University, as it's going to rocket onto the National University level in the next few years.
Last edited by RightonWalnut; 10-18-2017 at 01:27 PM..
Also, keep an eye on Jefferson University, as it's going to rocket onto the National University level in the next few years.
Agreed. And while I take college rankings with a grain of salt, but Drexel is ranked 94th, Temple 115th, and Duquesne 120th US World News also tracks graduation rates at 4 years, whereas over half of the Drexel student body graduates in 5 due to the co-op program, so that certainly has an effect on the ranking.
Temple and especially Drexel also have much deeper pockets then Duquesne, and they are much larger universities with a lot more investment and growth opportunities, so that is not the best comparison.
And I don't know anyone who thinks CMU is ranked higher then Penn, and I agree that Villanova is just as attached to Philadelphia as Drexel and Penn are. I love the "all the way out on the Main Line" as if Villanova is in Harrisburg or something.
Also, even if Princeton is not in the Philadelphia area, there is still an overflow of talent from that school into the Philadelphia area.
I was not the person who said Downtown Pittsburgh was dead. I also agreed that Downtown Pittsburgh is not dead after 6PM. It's certainly much better than it was even a couple of year ago. I was simply stating that compared to Center City Philadelphia, yes, Downtown Pittsburgh will still feel dead. I was in Downtown Pittsburgh last September, so stop acting like I have no clue. In the same time frame, from 2010 to 2016, Center City went from 57,000 residents, to over 100,000 residents, in 3 square miles. That's 1/3 the population of Pittsburgh. Expand to Girard to the north and Washington to the South, and the population ballooned to 183,000+ residents, which is over half of the entire population of Pittsburgh, in 7 square miles. These two are just on completely different levels.
Center City is definitely top 5 in Downtown, but I don't think Pittsburgh is top 10 Downtown quite yet. If you think it's a top 10 Downtown, you haven't traveled much. The amount of office space is nice and the growing restaurants are nice, but it's still pretty lacking in restaurants, nightlife, shopping, parks, etc. It has really nice bones, and the potential is definitely there, but there are still quite a few Downtowns which are better than Downtown Pittsburgh:
Manhattan, Chicago, San Francisco, Philadelphia, Boston, Brooklyn, DC, Los Angeles, Seattle, Miami, San Antonio, Austin, Denver, Nashville, Portland, Baltimore, Kansas City, Atlanta, Minneapolis, New Orleans and Detroit are all currently better Downtowns than Pittsburgh.
It's just the way it is. Penn ranks higher than CMU.
Villanova ranks higher than Pitt - IDK why you're saying Villanova is "all the way out on the Main Line." Villanova is 11 miles from City Hall, which is closer than Chestnut Hill or parts of Northeast Philly are to City Hall. Also, if you drove out along Lancaster Ave from the City to Philadelphia, you wouldn't knew you ever left the city unless you knew better. I also don't know what you're talking about with Villanova "not considering themselves Philadelphia," as all I see is that they DO consider themselves Philadelphia actually. They consider themselves a part of the "City 6." Google it.
Pittsburgher's seem to have this weird perception that once you get to City limits, you hit an impenetrable force field which you can't leave. American cities extend far beyond their boundaries. A place like the Main Line is much more a part of the city limits of Philadelphia, than some parts of Houston or Phoenix city limits are apart of those cities. Anybody who thinks Phoenix is a larger city than Philadelphia is kidding themselves. I know that Pittsburgh doesn't have much of a "region" outside of the city limits, but MSA or urban area is really the best way to measure the true size of a city.
Drexel and Temple rank higher than Duquesne.
Also, keep an eye on Jefferson University, as it's going to rocket onto the National University level in the next few years.
Lol you can't even be taken seriously if you think San Antonio has a busier downtown than Pittsburgh. 40% of its downtown is a surface parking lot. Austin? Nashville? Kansas City? New Orleans? Are you kidding Me? Really? Wow.
Schools, you conveintly add suburban traits of Philly when it's beneficial to an argument then leave out when it's not. Penn is better than CMU at MOST things. Tech and engineering CMU is 4th in the country. Villanova is equal to Pitt, not better. Drexel is a bit higher than Duquesne, but barely in the top 100. And Temple literally the same ranking as Duquesne, no matter what you want. Jefferson isnt even in the top 300.
Lol you can't even be taken seriously if you think San Antonio has a busier downtown than Pittsburgh. 40% of its downtown is a surface parking lot. Austin? Nashville? Kansas City? New Orleans? Are you kidding Me? Really? Wow.
Schools, you conveintly add suburban traits of Philly when it's beneficial to an argument then leave out when it's not. Penn is better than CMU at MOST things. Tech and engineering CMU is 4th in the country. Villanova is equal to Pitt, not better. Drexel is a bit higher than Duquesne, but barely in the top 100. And Temple literally the same ranking as Duquesne, no matter what you want. Jefferson isnt even in the top 300.
Embarrassing to have your #2 be a cauldron of snobbery.
Wait if Villanova is ranked 46th and Pitt 68th how are they equal? That is the same gap as Drexel 94th and Duquesne 120th.
You also don't need to add the backhanded compliment to Drexel... "a bit higher, but barely in the top 100" Just give credit where its due without the side comments.
I know this argument is trivial because in the end, whether your school is ranked 50th or 100th that only takes you so far... I am a Drexel graduate and beat out several Penn, Villanova, Cornell and Vanderbilt people for the great job I got right out of college.
This forum is so stupid and such a dated mentality. Other than fighting for each other's sport teams. We each should recognize our pros and cons. Both have many, and both should be supporting each other! Pittsburgh is a great city, and so is Philadelphia and both were industrial powerhouses during their prime, and both have managed to diversify their economies and remain relevant within the 21st century.
My only comment is that Southeast PA is truly a powerhouse when it comes to wealth. Not saying there are not pockets of wealth outside Pittsburgh (it definitely still has traces of old money). But the Mainline is definitely Pennsylvania's epicenter of all wealth.
But with that. Both cities should support one another. I really think the state needs a One Pennsylvania campaign. If we keep adopting this provincial mindset, that exists so deep within our government structure, we are going to remain a slow growing state.
Lol you can't even be taken seriously if you think San Antonio has a busier downtown than Pittsburgh. 40% of its downtown is a surface parking lot. Austin? Nashville? Kansas City? New Orleans? Are you kidding Me? Really? Wow.
Schools, you conveintly add suburban traits of Philly when it's beneficial to an argument then leave out when it's not. Penn is better than CMU at MOST things. Tech and engineering CMU is 4th in the country. Villanova is equal to Pitt, not better. Drexel is a bit higher than Duquesne, but barely in the top 100. And Temple literally the same ranking as Duquesne, no matter what you want. Jefferson isnt even in the top 300.
Embarrassing to have your #2 be a cauldron of snobbery.
Look, I really, really like Pittsburgh.
Downtown Pittsburgh has the bones and potential to be something truly amazing one day, and that day is coming. The changes are very positive. It just needs to continue to add residents and hotels, and move away from the 9-5 business district it's been. Keep adding restaurants, shops, nightlife, etc. and it will be up there. It has potential to at least be top 15...
...but yes, those Downtowns currently offer more than Downtown Pittsburgh.
Great googly moogly, I know this thread went off the rails before it even started, but this higher education battle mishegas is ridiculous. Just to address a few points:
RoW got the university rankings spot-on, though I’d clarify that on the whole there’s a similarly sized gap between Penn and CMU and CMU and Villanova (read: significant, but by no means gargantuan). Villanova does have a small edge over Pitt in terms of selectivity and academic quality, and I say this as both a proud Pitt alum and someone who has a lot of issues with Villanova as an institution (I won’t go into my screed here, but if you’re really curious you can direct message me). Temple and Drexel are about on par, as a whole, but have a similar edge over Duquesne. Duquesne is one of those home-grown institutions that’s stagnated over the years but continues to coast on reputation among Pittsburghers of a certain age. If you look at the web archive editions of the USNWR rankings, you can see Pitt soar around the same time Duquesne started to fall.
It’s a stretch to tout Princeton as a Philly school, but it absolutely makes sense to include Villanova, along with the liberal arts powerhouse trifecta of Swarthmore, Haverford, and Bryn Mawr. Pittsburgh can lay claim to its suburban schools as well. The difference is that while La Roche, Seton Hill, RMU, etc. have their strengths and bright spots, they’re strictly regional institutions in the vein of West Chester and Arcadia. The only nationally ranked school in the Pittsburgh MSA outside the city proper is Washington and Jefferson, and that’s lower Tier 2, as I recall.
It’s also important to recognize that while the Ivies are great at a number of things, engineering and tech are relative weak points. If you want to be an engineer and can’t get into MIT, CalTech, or the like, you’re better off at CMU than Penn. CMU’s fine and performing arts programs are also without peer in Philadelphia for the most part (Curtis offers a superior music conservatory, but PAFA and UArts, while great in their own right, aren’t up to snuff).
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Embarrassing to have your #2 be a cauldron of snobbery.
