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What are other cool, walkable suburban Downtowns and Boroughs in the Pittsburgh area outside of Mount Lebanon and Dormont that are in good shape? Sewickley looks like a really nice one. Any others?
Just about all the prewar street car suburbs that did not rely on heavy industry. There are many all over the metro. Some of the ones I listed are better than others but all have walkable commercial districts with large historic homes adjacent to them.
That is simply just not true. Why must you lie about factual information even though I corrected someone (possibly you) up thread.
Allegheny County
2010: 1,223,348
2015: 1,230,459
Philadelphia has modest gains as well, but Allegheny is doing fine. Much better than 2000-2010.
It probably was me, and here I apologize for getting statements from the two Tribune stories that were posted above confused and incorrectly citing one.
The first one, which did mention a continuing population decline since 2010, referred to the seven-county Pittsburgh MSA.
The second one referred to Allegheny County, but the decline it mentioned spanned the 25 years since 1990.
Philadelphia's population is also below its 1990 level, but the city has made up most of the loss since 2000; its 1995 population estimate is a little more than 18,000 below its 1990 figure.
It's nice to see that Allegheny County is on the rebound, but it's of more recent provenance, and the Trib article stated that the 2015 population is 110,000 lower than the 1990 figure.
Do not interpret this as a knock on Pittsburgh, as I suspect that Allegheny County's trendline reversal originates there. But my statement of "taking place against a background of decline" still holds, IMO. Philadelphia's decline took place against a backdrop of continued metropolitan growth. Which, paradoxically, may have been a sign that the core city was stronger than its numbers would lead one to conclude, given the research Dick Voith did on the relationship between city and suburban economies in the 1990s. Either that, or Philadelphia's suburban employment centers were functioning as a lifeline for many city residents while the city itself slowly turned around.
100% Pittsburgh has wealthy areas. The North Hills are not even close to the Main Line in wealth however. Where did you get those median household incomes from? I can't find over $200,000 for Sewickley anywhere. Sewickley Heights has a population of like 800 people. ZIP Codes aren't an exact measurement for wealth, but it's a better measure then cherry picking small measurements and towns.
I have access to a mapping tool that lets you analyze Census Bureau data down to the block group level and examine changes over time (limited to a five-year period from the last Census for most current data).
The $228,958 figure is the Census Bureau 2015 estimate for Sewickley Heights Borough, pop. 722.
A rough analogue in the Philadelphia region would be breaking out the numbers for Millbourne Borough, Delaware County. Population: 1,155 (2015 est); MHI, $35,000. The borough has the distinction of being the only majority-South Asian municipality in the United States.
Just about all the prewar street car suburbs that did not rely on heavy industry. There are many all over the metro. Some of the ones I listed are better than others but all have walkable commercial districts with large historic homes adjacent to them.
Thank you! I like Mount Lebanon, Dormont, Sewickley, Oakmont and Greensburg. What are the train lines running through Oakmont? Is this a commuter rail line or light rail line? If not, it needs to be. It runs all the way Downtown. Man US transit and infrastructure sucks.
I have access to a mapping tool that lets you analyze Census Bureau data down to the block group level and examine changes over time (limited to a five-year period from the last Census for most current data).
The $228,958 figure is the Census Bureau 2015 estimate for Sewickley Heights Borough, pop. 722.
A rough analogue in the Philadelphia region would be breaking out the numbers for Millbourne Borough, Delaware County. Population: 1,155 (2015 est); MHI, $35,000. The borough has the distinction of being the only majority-South Asian municipality in the United States.
Yes, I thought it was a small sample of the area that would return such a high MHI. Usually you can take small subsets of areas and get the same results. It's the areas that keep a high MHI through entire zip codes or multiple zip codes and townships - like Lower Merion - that really impress me.
Just like if you take only the east portion of Villanova, the MHI is $366,000. The whole Zip is $188,000. I'm sure you could do the same for parts of Gladwyne, Bryn Mawr, Wayne, St. David's, Doylestown, Newtown, Haddonfield, etc. etc.
I'm getting a kick out of All this bragging in wealthy suburbs of Philly through NJ and Delaware. Then Colonial CC and other core areas. It just keeps proving how the gap between rich and poor between Philly's core, suburbs? As It's in Stark Contrast to its blighted (in appearence) poor neighborhoods? Perhaps more then any other major city?
This huge gap in Philly with much less % of middle-class folk left? That Pittsburgh has a much higher % of? Is something Pittsburgh could Brag about? This having more middle-class White folk left in the city is a positive thing.
I understand this lost generation mentioned for Pittsburgh also? But Surely still a good sized middle-class left? Though surely being squeezed? Is to commended, that Pittsburgh has a much higher % left then Philly.
So all this boasting of wealthy Philly? As if it's suppose to show up Pittsburgh as now inferior? To still have a middle-class white population in the city? I don't think it works to nearly the degree Philly posters here think it does in the boasting of more wealthy then Pittsbugh? Sorry guys.
Sadly, blight seen still keeps Philly's stigma ongoing if it's still seen by visitors just outside of CC? Yes I know its disappearing more and more on a positive note. But Locals see the improvements primarily. Visitors see the remaining blight that's left? So then it still stands out more to them.
Gentrification is removing blight. But by pieces of blocks at a time, and missing row homes appear striking to outsiders? Even in gentrifying neighborhoods, it takes years to renew more totally and gain all new infill. While blight can remain across the street from homes gutted and exteriors returned to bare brick as it had originally with many many 10's of thousands of $'s put in them.
Once whole blocks and neighborhoods are complete in gentrification? It surely is overall cleaner and much more well kept.
Remember than Township estimates are directly correlated to the county's growth rate and not a direct estimation. I assume you've never been to Cranberry? It is absolutely bursting with growth. Lower Merion has been losing population since 1970. It's undoubtedly due to declining household size and not lack of desirability lol.
Cranberrys MHI in 2000 was ~66,000. It's now ~102,000. Lower Merions MHI in 2000 was ~107,000 it's now ~119,000. Cranberry will catch it, it's only a matter of time. It's not a bad thing, Lower Merion is just matured while Cranberry is booming.
Lower Merion's population has fluctuated a bit since 1970--it hasn't been a straight decline. It will probably continue to hover around 60,000 for the foreseeable future, though.
And while Cranberry's median household income is $101,963, it's mean household income is $118,878, indicating a very even distribution with fairly little ultra-affluence. Lower Merion's MHI is $193,174. Unless Cranberry's wealth trajectory suddenly changes, it's not primed to become on the same level as Lower Merion. This is even more pronounced in terms of median/mean family income. Cranberry's is $120,217/$133,844, while LM's is $164,521/$246,957.
There are a number of Pittsburgh area suburbs which are wealthier than Cranberry anyway, as you are aware.
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Originally Posted by RightonWalnut
I have never been to Cranberry Township. Looking around on Google Maps is the best I get to familiarty with it It looks somewhat similar to a Valley Forge type area. Correct me if I'm wrong.
Knowing you, you'd find Cranberry an eyesore. I find Cranberry an eyesore. It's no different from Philadelphia's outer ring suburban sprawl. Think of it like the West Chester area minus the anchor Borough and the ritzier developments. With low taxes and easy interstate access, it is attracting some business development, to its credit.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RightonWalnut
I think Lower Merion declined between 1970 and 2015 due to new construction happening in areas surrounding the Main Line and people moved out to newer houses. It definitely also likely has to do with the declining household size as well.
Like many older suburbs, Lower Merion was essentially built out by 1970. A lot of suburban areas declined between circa. 1970 and 1990 (depending on post-war development tipping point) because children grew up and left for college. Declining household sizes play a big part as well. Lower Merion's small population increases and decreases between 1990-2000 and 2000-2010, respectively, also evidence generational turnover.
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Originally Posted by RightonWalnut
There has been a slight uptick in population from 2010 to 2015 however, and there are some nice new developments and finally new construction happening in some areas which I would assume would bring an uptick in population.
There's been projects here and there since the '70s--not to knock Carl Dranoff, who erects mixed-use projects and saves lives. I think we're starting to see more generational turnover as younger baby boomers become empty nesters and downsize and growing families replace them.
Agreed, the majority of Delaware, Bucks, Montgomery, and Chester Counties are town after town of middle/upper class with many upper class enclaves mixed in. There are only a few very isolated high crime/poverty areas (Chester being the obvious one).
Delaware County is actually split between its more affluent northern/western precincts and its more blue-collar/poorer territories that make up most of its eastern half.
Its largest municipality, Upper Darby Township, replicates the split within its borders, what with fairly affluent Drexel Hill and the less affluent parts around 69th Street Terminal and to its south.
The communities that hug the Philadelphia border to UD's south mix lower-, working- and middle-class districts. Lansdowne, East Lansdowne, and Yeadon (a black middle-class redoubt that's slowly losing its black middle class) are more middle-class, while Darby Borough and Township and Colwyn are definitely downscale. The communities from there to Chester along Chester Pike and MacDade Boulevard are mostly lower- to middle-middle class. Tinicum Township is pretty industrial/blue-collar as well.
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Originally Posted by RightonWalnut
Weird that Sewickley Heights shows up, but places like Gladwyne and Villanova do not.
I don't see Cranberry township being larger than Lower Merion anytime soon. If current growth rates stayed the same, it would take 30 years for Cranberry to catch Lower Merion in population.
Cranberry Township's population in 2010 was 28,098. The population in 2015 was 29,457. That's 1,359 people on 5 years. Cranberry Townships overall MHI is $101,963.
Lower Merion Township (which by the way includes most of the Main Line including Bala Cynwyd, Ardmore, Narberth, Gladwyne, Wynnewood, Merion Station, and half of Villanova) had a population of 57,825 in 2010. It's population in 2015 was 58,188. That's only an increase of 363 in 5 years, however, this is because of little new construction in the area, and it being mostly built out. There is a lot of new/denser development coming to Bala Cynwyd and Ardmore however, so this could significantly increase the population in the next few years. The MHI in this entire area by the way, is $118,704.
Most of the communities that comprise the Main Line are not separate municipalities. Narberth, which is a borough surrounded entirely by Lower Merion Township, is the only one that falls into that category.
Of the other communities, only two - Ardmore and Bryn Mawr - are Census Designated Places. You will find demographic and income data for CDPs, but not for unincorporated communities that lack such designation.
Because this is the case, ZIP codes are as close as we will get to "municipal" definitions for most of the Main Line's "towns." Were Gladwyne its own borough rather than part of a ZIP code that includes more downmarket Belmont Hills (nee West Manayunk), we might find its MHI closer to that of Sewickley Heights.
To make matters worse, two of the communities on the Main Line share names with actual municipalities: Haverford and Radnor, both townships in Delaware County. Haverford the Main Line community straddles the Montgomery/Delaware county line and lies partly in Lower Merion as a result. The same goes for Ardmore, Bryn Mawr and Villanova. Bala Cynwyd, Gladwyne and Wynnewood are all entirely in Lower Merion, Montgomery County. Radnor and Wayne (which is Radnor Township's "downtown") are split between Radnor Township, Delaware County, and Upper Merion Township, Montgomery County, though both communities lie mainly in the Delaware County township.
Quote:
Originally Posted by RightonWalnut
Yes, I thought it was a small sample of the area that would return such a high MHI. Usually you can take small subsets of areas and get the same results. It's the areas that keep a high MHI through entire zip codes or multiple zip codes and townships - like Lower Merion - that really impress me.
Just like if you take only the east portion of Villanova, the MHI is $366,000. The whole Zip is $188,000. I'm sure you could do the same for parts of Gladwyne, Bryn Mawr, Wayne, St. David's, Doylestown, Newtown, Haddonfield, etc. etc.
I think you'd enjoy playing with PoiicyMap.
But municipalities are what they are, whether large or small. Since Sewickley Heights is one but Gladwyne is not, we can get data for it as a political subdivision. That was the point of my bringing up Millbourne Borough as an analogue over here. Narberth Borough would also qualify, and it is on the Main Line:
Population: 4,292
MHI: $89,821
For comparison purposes, the MHI for 19072, the ZIP code that includes Narberth, is $112,229.
Thank you! I like Mount Lebanon, Dormont, Sewickley, Oakmont and Greensburg. What are the train lines running through Oakmont? Is this a commuter rail line or light rail line? If not, it needs to be. It runs all the way Downtown. Man US transit and infrastructure sucks.
We only have one light rail line that runs from the south to the northside and no commuter rail. There are no future plans for light rail expansion or any commuter rail lines. One of my pet peeves.
Mount Lebo or Dormont is your best bet.
* any rail lines you see through the city are for freight transit or limited Amtrak service.
Last edited by bluecarebear; 02-03-2017 at 10:56 PM..
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It looks somewhat similar to a Valley Forge type area. Correct me if I'm wrong.
