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"See My Blog Entries for my Top 500 Most Important USA Cities"
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Location: Harrisburg, PA
1,051 posts, read 975,507 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by _Buster
Well you've outed yourself as ridiculous with that. Renovo is not even a place most people in the state have even heard of , let alone the rest of the country.
To you population is the most important. But to people who are not population nerds on city-data, it is probably not. It would make sense to give the OP enough credit that they have a reason for wanting to compare them.
Population does matter since it impacts living/work options, crime/traffic/pollution, social activities, available amenities, political atmosphere, cost of living, lifestyle, etc. Sure, you can compare any two places from an individual's perspective.
My point earlier was that from an academic perspective (looking at the cities demographically) these are very different places and cannot be compared apples to apples. Human capital is the most valuable resource of a city in overwhelmingly most cases, and simply by comparing population there is too large a difference between these two to form any further comparison at a macro level (probably not what the OP wants anyway though)...
My initial thought with this thread was that the Pitt/Philly comparison has probably been done before many times over.
Location: The Flagship City and Vacation in the Paris of Appalachia
2,773 posts, read 3,855,823 times
Reputation: 2067
Quote:
Originally Posted by g500
I was going to make a similar comment but did not want to offend anyone. I agree, the jump from Pittsburgh to Philadelphia is about the same from Harrisburg to Pittsburgh.
Harrisburg - 493k urban area population - 85th nationally - large regional city. Similar sized UAs are Akron, Des Moines, Greenville, Little Rock, Wichita.
Pittsburgh - 1,719k urban area population - 29th nationally - national city. Similar sized UAs are Charlotte, Cincinnati, Cleveland, Indianapolis, Kansas City.
Philadelphia - 5,585k urban area population - 7th nationally - global city. Similar sized UAs are Atlanta, DC, Dallas, Houston, Miami.
Good post and don't worry about offending anyone as no matter what you post it will undoubtedly offend someone. This is exactly what I was talking about and if we seriously try and compare Pittsburgh to Harrisburg it would be silly due to the differences in size.
I think Philly and PGH are worth comparing for a number of reasons, keeping in mind that some metrics, like cultural output, are better considered on a per capita basis. When it comes down to it, there are some striking differences but a lot more subtle similarities.
The Philadelphia boosters on here try to deny any relationship similarities to Pittsburgh because of a Rust-belt Blue Collar manufacturing history that would lend itself to the Narrative of Philly they themselves don't want to believe. They like to live in this fantasy world that portrays Philly as an "NYC Lite", a Rich Cosmopolitan HQ filled city with overflowing sophisticated Professional/Creative/White collared populations.
But they can't escape it ... Philadelphia is just as much a Rust-Belt, Blue Collar, Working Class City in the fiber of its being, as Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Cleveland. You leave Center City and its Screams at you everywhere in Philadelphia.
Population differences don't matter. Can't hide what Philadelphia truly is to people who have been there and lived there.
The Philadelphia boosters on here try to deny any relationship similarities to Pittsburgh because of a Rust-belt Blue Collar manufacturing history that would lend itself to the Narrative of Philly they themselves don't want to believe. They like to live in this fantasy world that portrays Philly as an "NYC Lite", a Rich Cosmopolitan HQ filled city with overflowing sophisticated Professional/Creative/White collared populations.
But they can't escape it ... Philadelphia is just as much a Rust-Belt, Blue Collar, Working Class City in the fiber of its being, as Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Cleveland. You leave Center City and its Screams at you everywhere in Philadelphia.
Population differences don't matter. Can't hide what Philadelphia truly is to people who have been there and lived there.
I have lived in and continue to love both cities.
Your indiscriminate bandying of the term "booster" is really irksome, and it doesn't fit the fair, reasoned, and nuanced posts that comprise the majority of this thread.
Philadelphia hits some cosmopolitan high notes that Pittsburgh does not. But, there is significantly more blight within the City limits and there are fewer stable, reasonably affordable middle class neighborhoods. Claiming that Philly's positive sphere of influence is strictly limited to Center City (or even "Greater Center City") is disingenuous. There are a number of fine and up-and-coming neighborhoods far enough to the North/East, South, and West to be out of Center City's orbit. There's also my Northwestern neck of the woods, which has nothing to do with Center City but has a number of stable and desirable middle to upper class enclaves, including a hip spot or two.
I would never deny Philadelphia's blue collar, working class core. I also hope the city retains this part of its identity as it continues to gentrify, but it doesn't "scream" out to me on the Ave in Chestnut Hill, Lincoln Drive in Mt. Airy, or outer Andorra, which is almost indistinguishable from Lafayette Hill. Ditto to the cul de sacs of Bustleton and Somerton and adjacent Rydal/Meadowbrook/Huntingdon Valley. In much of Manayunk, Fishtown, NoLibs, Grad Hospital, and the like, the "humbler" infrastructure is covered with gentrifier varnish, no different from Lawrenceville, Bloomfield, Polish Hill, or the South Side. On the same token, there are still some working class pockets within Center City itself.
^^I also don't believe King of Prussia is a large edge city. Heck, I wouldn't even call it a edge city. Now if Norristown, King of Prussia and Conshohocken were all one, then yes, I would say this is a large edge city. In Philly metro itself, Wilmington, DE is a much larger edge city than KOP, and that would indeed be one of the largest on the east coast with a population of 72K. Still, there are much larger edge cities, like Jersey City, Arlington, Alexandria, Cambridge, etc.
None of the cities you list above are edge cities save for King of Prussia itself. Arlington, Va., may also qualify, but Wilmington, Cambridge, Alexandria, Jersey City and Norristown definitely do not. They are satellite cities, a completely different animal.
The term "edge city" was coined by former Washington Post reporter Joel Garreau in his 1991 book Edge City: Life on the New Urban Frontier. The places he describes in that book were all non-places as recently as 1960. (You might want to check out the home page of the King of Prussia Historical Society, which features alternating photos of the intersection of Gulph Road and DeKalb Pike (US 202) in 1961 and today, taken from the exact same angle.)
The criteria Garreau laid out for a place to be considered an "edge city" in that book are:
It has at least 5 million square feet of leasable office space.
It has at least 600,000 square feet of leasable retail space.
It has more jobs than residents.
It is perceived by the general public as one place.
It in no way resembled a "city" in 1960; at that time, it was either a strictly bedroom community or undeveloped fields.
I'll give you the stats for King of Prussia below.
Quote:
As for KOP looking dated, this is changing rapidly. There is over $1 Billion in construction happening currently in KOP between retail, residential and office. The new mall expansion is pretty glorious and modern. Also, they are essentially building a walkable urban neighborhood in King of Prussia with the KOP Town Center and Village at Valley Forge... it's pretty awesome to see. I would suggest checking it out if you haven't.
In case you missed it, I've been writing about the developments in King of Prussia:
A further exploration of this same subject ran as "Leveling Up" in the June print edition.
Quote:
Originally Posted by speagles84
I hate getting involved in these pissing matches because I love both cities (I've lived in Pittsburgh for all of my 26 years, and my fiance' is from Northeast Philadelphia and I know Philadelphia better than most).
KOP is not the 2nd largest edge city in the northeast. It's quite underwhelming to be honest. It's quite dated looking these days, TBH. Tysons and Reston are both considerably larger and that's only NOVA. In Pittsburgh, Robinson/Moon has grown to near the size of KOP, the employment numbers are split over 3 townships, so it would be difficult to compare without overestimating. Cranberry Township is also growing extremely quickly, although not near the size of either. It's also evident to me the Airport Corridor is growing more rapidly (more akin to Exton and Downingtown growth).
I refer to Tysons as "the ur-edge city" in my print piece, and it's the edge city that I ranked KofP second to.
As for the stats I promised: some of them appeared in that print piece, but here they are again.
King of Prussia, Pa. (all figures from the King of Prussia District's 2016 "Report to the Community" except population)
5.8 million square feet of retail space
9.2 million square feet of industrial/flex space
7.68 million square feet of office space
59,129 employees
19,936 residents in the King of Prussia CDP (Census Bureau, 2010)
Tysons Corner, Va. (figures from the Fairfax County Economic Development Authority's "Tysons Corner Profile" unless otherwise noted; figures rounded to nearest 100k)
6 million+ square feet of retail space
1 million square feet of industrial/flex space
26.8 million square feet of office space
120,661 employees (this figure includes employment in neighboring McLean and Vienna)
19,627 residents in the Tysons Corner CDP (Census Bureau, 2010)
Tysons is clearly larger than King of Prussia, but calling KofP "underwhelming" underestimates it severely. The only area in which Tysons clearly dominates is office space, having about four times as much as KofP. They're close on retail space (and with the recent connector, King of Prussia's status as the nation's second largest mall was definitely cemented; remove the indoor amusement park from the Mall of America and KofP has more leasable retail space, at least until a planned expansion of the latter is completed), and KofP has about nine times as much industrial space as Tysons, which may account for your sense of the Pennsylvania edge city as something of a letdown; after all, they don't build gleaming towers to house manufacturing plants or warehouses. Employment in Tysons (plua Vienna and McLean) is a little more than twice that in KofP; their resident populations are virtually the same.
Quote:
The Kansas city and St Louis comparison isn't really valid between Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. Both PA cities are hemmed in by suburban boroughs, but Philadelphia did have the opportunity to annex alot more area than Pittsburgh did. If Pittsburgh had the opportunity to annex dense boroughs adjacent to the city without lowering the population density, Pittsburgh would have a city population of over 650,000. Hence, if anything, Philly would be the Kansas city in that comparison.
When did Philadelphia have the opportunity to annex "a lot more area" after 1854, the year the city and all the other municipalities in Philadelphia County consolidated?
Philadelphia's 135 square miles could fit into Kansas City's 320-plus twice and still leave extra room.
One other difference: I believe Pennsylvania municipalities may not cross county lines, though I think one does on Lehigh County's border with Bucks. Missouri municipalities may annex unincorporated land in adjacent counties.
Quote:
The sheer number of elderly people in western PA 15 to 20 years ago was simply staggering. To make it easy to see how rapidly Pittsburgh is changing even though without population GROWTH consider this. The change from previous decades is changing rapidly, and population growth is going to happen very soon in the city of Pittsburgh, just like Philadelphia has done since ~2008.
Pittsburgh Population:
Population Change Difference
2000: 334,563 -35,316
2010: 305,704 -28,859
2015: 304,391 -1,313 (+27,546 or 9.01%)
Philadelphia Population:
Population Change Difference
2000: 1,517,550 -68,027
2010: 1,526,006 +8,456
2015: 1,567,442 +41,436 (+32,980 or 2.16%)
Philadelphia turned the corner in the late 1990s or early 2000s, where Pittsburgh did this in the late 2000s. It's taking awhile to post a population gain in the city, but it will happen soon.
What are the numbers in parentheses?
As I noted before, the first signs of a turnaround came in the 1990 census, when two areas of the city posted population gains since 1980: Center City and Juniata Park. While the city overall continued to lose residents in the 1990s, the number of neighborhoods that added them grew, and the gains in Center City accelerated.
As the slope of the population loss curve is flattening in Pittsburgh now the way it was in Philadelphia from 1980 to 2000, I'll bet you should see population gains beginning with next year's or 2018's Census estimates and confirmed in the 2020 Census.
Quote:
The two counties that concern me in both metros are Westmoreland for Pittsburgh and Bucks for Philadelphia. Both are huge suburban counties, and causing stagnation numbers for the metro (Bucks is less pronounced than Westmoreland, but Bucks will start loosing population soon I believe)
Bucks?
I'd peg Delaware as a more likely candidate for population loss. It's much more densely developed than Bucks, and older industrial suburbs account for a higher percentage of its residents.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212
The Philadelphia boosters on here try to deny any relationship similarities to Pittsburgh because of a Rust-belt Blue Collar manufacturing history that would lend itself to the Narrative of Philly they themselves don't want to believe. They like to live in this fantasy world that portrays Philly as an "NYC Lite", a Rich Cosmopolitan HQ filled city with overflowing sophisticated Professional/Creative/White collared populations.
But they can't escape it ... Philadelphia is just as much a Rust-Belt, Blue Collar, Working Class City in the fiber of its being, as Pittsburgh, Baltimore, and Cleveland. You leave Center City and its Screams at you everywhere in Philadelphia.
Population differences don't matter. Can't hide what Philadelphia truly is to people who have been there and lived there.
I don't recognize these boosters you speak of in this fashion.
Just about everyone I know hereabouts acknowledges the city's industrial heritage, and there are some who would love nothing more than to revive the city's manufacturing tradition, even if they too know that it will never again be "The Workshop of the World."
Also, see below.
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin
I have lived in and continue to love both cities.
Your indiscriminate bandying of the term "booster" is really irksome, and it doesn't fit the fair, reasoned, and nuanced posts that comprise the majority of this thread.
Philadelphia hits some cosmopolitan high notes that Pittsburgh does not. But, there is significantly more blight within the City limits and there are fewer stable, reasonably affordable middle class neighborhoods. Claiming that Philly's positive sphere of influence is strictly limited to Center City (or even "Greater Center City") is disingenuous. There are a number of fine and up-and-coming neighborhoods far enough to the North/East, South, and West to be out of Center City's orbit. There's also my Northwestern neck of the woods, which has nothing to do with Center City but has a number of stable and desirable middle to upper class enclaves, including a hip spot or two.
I also live up this way, Elijah, in Germantown, the second-oldest of Philadelphia's communities, founded in 1683. It's also the city's largest neighborhood by population, with some 60,000 inhabitants, and IMO its most diverse from a socioeconomic standpoint.
But as for that "hip spot or two" bit, did you read this?
The editors gave it that headline, not me, but it achieved its purpose, which was to get tongues in Chestnut Hill wagging - and reading the article if only to argue the question.
Quote:
I would never deny Philadelphia's blue collar, working class core. I also hope the city retains this part of its identity as it continues to gentrify, but it doesn't "scream" out to me on the Ave in Chestnut Hill, Lincoln Drive in Mt. Airy, or outer Andorra, which is almost indistinguishable from Lafayette Hill. Ditto to the cul de sacs of Bustleton and Somerton and adjacent Rydal/Meadowbrook/Huntingdon Valley. In much of Manayunk, Fishtown, NoLibs, Grad Hospital, and the like, the "humbler" infrastructure is covered with gentrifier varnish, no different from Lawrenceville, Bloomfield, Polish Hill, or the South Side. On the same token, there are still some working class pockets within Center City itself.
Chinatown actually has the lowest median household income of any neighborhood in the city, IIRC.
But I think the neighborhood you were referring to in that last sentence was Schuylkill, in Center City's far southwest corner.
Last edited by MarketStEl; 12-06-2016 at 11:36 PM..
Location: The Flagship City and Vacation in the Paris of Appalachia
2,773 posts, read 3,855,823 times
Reputation: 2067
Quote:
Originally Posted by ElijahAstin
I think Philly and PGH are worth comparing for a number of reasons, keeping in mind that some metrics, like cultural output, are better considered on a per capita basis. When it comes down to it, there are some striking differences but a lot more subtle similarities.
Fair enough, but this is not the comparison I typically see when people are comparing the two cities. Many of the posts I read on here seem to compare the two cities as if they are very similar and it is an either/or type comparison.
So much for Philadelphia "never getting national press" according to Blackbeauty
Quote:
Still riding the high of playing host to major events like the DNC and Popeadelphia, Philly was just named a top place to visit in 2017 by Travel + Leisure magazine.
“We also pay attention to cities that are worth revisiting: Philadelphia, in particular, may surprise you with the amount of growth and development it has seen in recent months,” the article states.
Philly was included in the top 50 places to visit next year, which also included U.S. cities like Nashville, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Honolulu, and Norfolk. Here’s what the travel mag had to say about our city:
Quote:
Philly is coming off a high-profile couple of years, between hosting Pope Francis and the DNC and being the first U.S. city inducted into the Organization of World Heritage Cities. Bathed in that ego-boosting afterglow, America's birthplace is adding hotel options from brands like Four Seasons, W, SLS, and Study, and debuting its new Museum of the American Revolution this spring. The young population here is growing at a faster rate than any other major city, and tidy residential neighborhoods like East Passyunk are being diversified.
The nomination also mentions places to drink, eat, and Mayor Jim Kenney’s efforts to keep Philly a sanctuary city.
It’s not the first time Philly has earned an accolade of this kind. In 2016, Philly was named the number 1 place to visit by Lonely Planet and earned a third spot ranking on New York Times’ 2015 list.
LMAO! Don't you get tired of shamelessly Boosting 24/7...... I never said "Never" but whatever ... BTW T&L did several write up on The Burgh this past year, seems they can't get enough of what they discovered.
And the Burgh beat Philly by a year on the "Best Places to Travel" List .. So yea, been there done that and Pittsburgh achieved that without even hosting the Pope, or the DNC.
LMAO! Don't you get tired of shamelessly Boosting 24/7...... I never said "Never" but whatever ... BTW T&L did several write up on The Burgh this past year, seems they can't get enough of what they discovered.
And the Burgh beat Philly by a year on the "Best Places to Travel" List .. So yea, been there done that and Pittsburgh achieved that without even hosting the Pope, or the DNC.
I mean come on, Travel + Leisure has been writing about Philadelphia for YEARS. Along with the New York Times, Washington Post, Lonely Planet, etc. etc. etc.
You act like this is something unique to Pittsburgh. I'm poking at you saying that Pittsburgh is getting more attention than Philadelphia.
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