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You start to make a good point...but here is mine:
Obama = "Pro-choice"
McCain = "Pro-Life"
To say that McCain won't do anything to stop abortion because the Bush administration didn't do anything (with the knowledge that both are Republicans), would be a fallacy of stereotyping. Now, is there a reasonable chance that McCain won't do anything? Sure. But, at least with McCain, there is a chance that abortion will be stopped. With Obama, we are guaranteed that abortion won't stop.
Now that brings us to the economic question. Obama's voting record shows him to be more liberal than a self-proclaimed socialist. Now, I'm not an economist, but I do know that socialism is not the way to boost your economy in the long term.
Yea with Mccain....
There is no chance of us getting out of a pointless war, getting out of debt, having healthcare....hey millions of people die because they cant afford to go to a doctor.
And your talking about socialist and saying that everyone should feel the same way as you.
You start to make a good point...but here is mine:
Obama = "Pro-choice"
McCain = "Pro-Life"
To say that McCain won't do anything to stop abortion because the Bush administration didn't do anything (with the knowledge that both are Republicans), would be a fallacy of stereotyping. Now, is there a reasonable chance that McCain won't do anything? Sure. But, at least with McCain, there is a chance that abortion will be stopped. With Obama, we are guaranteed that abortion won't stop.
Now that brings us to the economic question. Obama's voting record shows him to be more liberal than a self-proclaimed socialist. Now, I'm not an economist, but I do know that socialism is not the way to boost your economy in the long term.
Have you been alive for the last eight years, and have you stood by and watched as the Republican's steered this country into a complete nosedive. How can you even bring up the economy with a straight face, after what happened to this country under George Bush? Are you joking? And don't say it's not only Bush's fault. The buck stop's here. Didn't one of our better leaders say that once? If this very same scenario, with our country crashing and burning so fast, happened under Bill Clinton (another embarrassment IMO) you guys would be at the front of the line carrying pitchforks and tourches to storm the White House and throw him out of office! Wake Up! Nothing will ever change unless we stop voting Democrat or Republican! They are the problem, not the solution!
Ok you are telling every woman in america what to do if you make abortion illegal, you are not giving them an option to do what THEY want to do. Like i said, i would not want someone i got pregnant to do that, but if someone else does then thats there descision. How are you not telling every woman in america what to do??? You want to make it a law saying they cant do something. If you dont like abortions DONT GET ONE, but DO NOT TRY TO TELL THE REST OF THE COUNTRY THEY HAVE TO DO AS YOU DO.
As for your slavery quote, John Mccain is for slavery...not based on a color but slavery for everyone. He wants to make a Federal Right to work law...which means employees have NO rights, cant form unions, get lower pay, no healthcare unless you pay out the a** for it, you can be fired at anytime without reason, you can be forced to work 12 hours a day without a break, your company pretty much owns you....i seen how that works because i was in a right to work state for a year, and all i can say is thank god for PA. So voting for Mccain you must not think slavery is a bad thing.
Abortion should be legal up to so many weeks, yes there should be restrictions on it...but it should be legal up to 3 months. A baby is not formed yet, yes it has the chance of life...but many of the mothers who are getting abortions are not ready to have a child, and not able to take care of the child. Look at all the kids born into horid situations in this country and end up criminals...
Freedom of religion means that a certain religion does not control america, everyones free to practice whatever they want. I am cathlic, but i disagree with many ways of the cathlic church.
The bank analogy didnt do it for me, are you standing up for killers who blow up clinics? Thats what it sounds like to me.... They are killers, who are taking innocent lifes away from people. They are no different than terrorist, sick sick people who will kill for there religious beleifs.
You shouldnt vote based on your views. You are voting based on the least important thing in America right now... You are more worried about something that little and insignificant than the state of this country..
You want proof? LOOK AT THE PAST 8 YEARS, IS THAT NOT ENOUGH PROOF FOR YOU? IT HAS BEEN PROVEN IRAQ HAD NOTHING TO DO WITH 911, IT HAS BEEN PROVEN THEY HAVE NO WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION, IT HAS BEEN PROVEN WE WENT TO A WAR, AND GOT THOUSANDS OF AMERICANS KILLED FOR NO REASON OTHER THAN GREED, MONEY, AND OIL. THOSE ARE FACTS. LOOK AT WHAT YOU PAY FOR GAS...DO YOU LIKE THAT? ITS BECAUSE THE REPUBLICANS ARE IN BED WITH THE BIG OIL COMPANYS, AND DONT CARE ABOUT YOU. LOOK AT ARE ECONOMY AFTER SOME DUMB REDNECK HAS RAN THIS COUNTRY FOR 8 YEARS, 6 OF WHICH WERE COMPLETLEY CONTROLLED BY REPUBLICANS. WE ARE IN A RESSESION, THATS A FACT, WALSTREET HAS COLAPSED, WE HAVE A 170 BILLION DOLLAR DEBT, ARE THESE NOT ENOUGH FACTS FOR YOU??? ARE YOU THAT BRAINWASHED BY YOUR GOD LOVING REPUBLICANS WHO PREACH THERE VALUES, THEN TURN AROUND AND *********? AND ALSO LIKE SOMEONE ELSE SAID THEY HAVE DONE NOTHING ABOUT ABORTION FOR THE PAST 8 YEARS, THE ONLY TIME THEY TALK ABOUT IT IS DURING ELECTIONS TO GET THESE BRAINWASHED AMERICAN GOOD CHRISTIANS VOTES. There is your facts!
I can see that you are incapable of having a rational debate, or you're not reading my posts.
I can see that you are incapable of having a rational debate, or you're not reading my posts.
How is that not rational??? I am telling you facts. I responded to what you said. Only thing is you cannot debate what i said because its the truth. Republicans have NO answers to what i just said other than bashing Obama, or calling him an extreme liberal, or saying he cant protect us and this and that....well let me tell you he can. Just remember when you go to that poll....Mccain prob. wont do anything about your big issue you have, and he will also get more americans killed in a war we shouldnt be in, he wont go after the people responsible for what happened to this country, are economy will keep getting worse, and he will be spitting in the face of hard working blue collered america. He will also be spitting in the face of elderly people, and disabled people...just like Bush has done. So take your morals about abortion and remember that. Oh and remember all the people in this country who dont have health insurance. I dont want to hear the bs about well people who dont have insurance are lazy and dont work. Not true, a lot of people work hard and dont have healthcare. I would much rather pay a small tax so me and everyone else has medical care, than pay hundreds of dollars a month just so i can have healthcare.
You have not been able to prove anything ive said to be wrong...because you cant.
You have not been able to prove anything ive said to be wrong...because you cant.
Debating with you is useless...you don't read my posts, you misconstrue the little you read, you're obviously uneducated (I'm sorry I don't mean that disrespectfully), and your response to my request for citations to facts is simply more of you telling me that it is a fact. There is no point to debating you because I made some excellent points, none of which you even addressed.
1. This country was great when clinton was in office...Bill was prob. one of the best presidents we have ever had. Obama reminds me a lot of bill...funny thing is people said bill was to young and inexperienced before he went into office.
Well the one thing I have to give bill credit for is he signed off on the Republican "Contract with America" which cut welfare and taxes and kicked the economy in gear. The first two years of his presidency were stagnant. Bill Clinton had 12 years as a governor, Obama has 150 days in the Senate. Big difference.
2. I know people from Michigan, and i know what there economy is like....its not the democrats fault. Republicans are the ones who let these companys get away with shipping jobs overseas,
Incorrect. Democrats raising taxes and keeping them there caused companies to move elsewhere along with unions holding companies hostage for repeated wage increases. If I'm a business owner and my employees are constantly striking, disrupting business operations and the government is keeping my taxes high, I'm moving my business. Sorry. It's always curious to me that union members support democrats that entangle businesses in taxes and regulation which cause business to move elsewhere that is more friendly.
3. Obama will give tax cuts to automakers who build there product here in America,
I haven't found any specific information from Obama that says such. And if so then why not cut all income taxes for businesses?
4. Obama will reopen Mills that have been shut down to build steel for new forms of energy.
Again I haven't found any specific information from Obama that supports that. And I don't think he could personally march in there and physically reopen mills.
5. The companys that ship jobs overseas do it because they save money....pay an American 20 dollars an hour or pay someone else 2 dollars an hour. Thats the way it is.
Companies ship jobs overseas because they tire of paying high taxes and getting held hostage by unions for repetitive wage increases. The decline of the steel and coal industry in PA was due to such. I travel the USA all year and it amazes me how many manufacturing plants are being built around the USA or have been recently. Only that the manufacturing now is more specialty oriented. And a lot of those plants are not in PA and for good reason. I would not start a business here so I can get raped by high taxes and regulation and unions bending me over a barrel.
6. All the republicans talk about is taxes...well let me tell you its a proven fact peoples paychecks are higher when a democrat is in office, and i lived in an ALL republican right to work state in the south for a year...the taxes there were 10 times higher than they are in PA.
What state? I doubt your taxes were 10 times higher. I'm familiar with all the state tax rates across the USA. I've not seen any evidence peoples paychecks are higher under democrats.
Individual Income Tax Rates-2008 (http://www.taxadmin.org/fta/rate/ind_inc.html - broken link)
7. In PA just take a look along the rivers around Pittsburgh at all the closed down Mills...its ashame, and dates back to when Regan screwed the unions.
The unions screwed themselves. You can't disrupt business operations and demand over the top wages and then expect people to stay in business. I know all about it because my relatives spent the 1970's and 1980's doing such and no surprise, they got their high wages for a while, then their employers went out of business. Companies bought Japanese steel because it was a reliable supply and of better quality. The free market decided.
8. I also think people should have healthcare, the same that John Mccain has. I went without healthcare for a year when i lived in that right to work state...and not because i didnt work but because i couldnt afford to pay hundreds of dollars a month for it. I now have it, and pay a very low cost through my job here.
And you pay the same here only they take it from another hand. It amazes me people think subsidized or socialized health care is "free" when it's you and your fellow taxpayers and citizens pay it though taxes or your employer pays you a lower wage while subsidizing the health care cost.
Healthcare is and should remain a free market. I pay just over $100 a month with a $2700 deductable and chose to try to have a healthy life. You can chose to pay much more for a comprehensive policy but I would rather pay for the little things as they are needed. I have that simple policy in the event I ever do have a serious illness. My choice and it should stay that way.
9. John Mccain will be worse than Bush (if thats posible)...yea John stay in Iraq 100 more years....because we have solved so much over there the past 8...thats a joke. If you want to support helping the Iraqis and not your own country then vote for Mccain. If you want a good president who cares about America vote for Obama.
I don't see much point in debating the rights and wrongs of Iraq, as it happened and as they say "here we are". So where do we go from here? I actually think we are on the cusp of something great in stabilizing Iraq as a democratic country much like we did Japan and Germany after WW2. Most of the middle east is run by thugs and I think if people can see some positive change in Iraq and Afghanistan it will make the region a safer and better place. Obamas assertion that we cut and run in just over a year is stupid and pointless after all we have been though. You NEVER announce your intentions to the bad guys. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
Also we can't discount the threat of radical islam and keeping it in check. We cut and ran in Somalia and osama bin ladin said himself in a quote that the USA doing such emboldened him to attack the USA.
10. Also Mccain wants to make it harder for people to retire, privatize SS, and screw over disabled people who cant work.
How? I've not seen any proposal to screw over disabled people or make it hard for people to retire.
The fact is Social Security was designed in an era that the average person was lucky to live to 65. Now most people live beyond 65. Also when first started you had about 40 people paying in for every recipient, now I believe only 2 people pay in for every person taking benefits. It's a ponzi scheme the time is running out on. Eventually the system is self defeating as the outflows are rapidly exceeding the inflows. The system is going to have to change or evolve because it will not survive in it's current format.
Sorry I had to chop up your message but I wanted to address certain points.
Last edited by wanneroo; 09-27-2008 at 03:29 PM..
Reason: made it easier to read
Republican's controlled Congress for six years! And George Bush was presidente for eight! Aren't you a little upset that your righteous hero's did nothing about abortion? They had all the power in the world! Literally! I'm not even pro choice. I had to confront an unplanned pregnancy head on, and at a bad time in my life, and me and my wife chose life, and have a beautiful two year old daughter to prove it. The anti abortion stance by republican's is just another trick they use to get you to vote for them. Don't you see that? They controlled the world for eight years!!! And did nothing to outlaw abortion. Doesn't that tell you something?
They didn't control the world for eight years as they never had a significant majority in the house or senate to drive home an agenda.
In any case I think Bush could have lead much better and many Republicans abandoned their conservative principles. As Rush said the other day, Congress is a cesspool and much of them need to be voted out. We need to clean house.
I don't want to hear "oh,no! they couldn,t do anything! That's the supreme court!" George Bush has been wiping his a$$ with the Constitution for eight years! And our government is a the verge of signing a trillion dollars over to Wall St.!!! The biggest rip off of The American people this country has ever seen!!! We are literally being plundered and pilaged by our own government, so don't give me that song and dance about "they couldn't do anything about abortion" they had the power to do exactly whatever they wanted, just like they are going to do for Wall St. Bend over America, this one is gonna hurt!!!
It's interesting it's the democrats and Bush in cahoots on this deal with congressional republicans revolting. I think you are right, the deal as proposed is highway robbery. The market does need liquidity, but the money is going to the wrong place. Just as an example Joe Biden tacked on millions in earmarks for his home state which doesn't have a damn thing to do with the bailout. What are these people thinking?
I say what we need to say is okay banks need some liquidity, fine we'll give you some low interest loans to get things moving. But this blank check type deal is going to be a cesspool swampland of corruption and graft. It will be a huge disaster.
Sorry I had to chop up your message but I wanted to address certain points.
Ok well i am guessing from your responses that you have never worked somewere like a steel mill or a coal mine...because if you did, you would know we deserve high wages. Imagine going into hell everyday, busting your a**, and working hard. I would love to see people who talk like this take off there suit and tie, and come do what we do for one day. We deserve to make good money, unions stand up for that. Unions are an americans right to organize...strenth in numbers. Why do you think that the big ceos of companys deserve so much more than your guy busting his a** everyday to put food on the table? Them ceos are not starving...trust me, and them companys are not doing bad. They can just make more profits by moving to a right to work state, or even more by moving out of the country. Here we go again...the rich get richer, and everyone else gets poorer. I dont understand how anyone could feel this way. I make good money...not rich, but i can pay my bills and have a little extra. I deserve that, and i deserve to have high wages. I love what i do, but its a dangerous job, and i work very hard for my money. I dont know what part of PA you are from, but around here in western PA was built on unions and working rights. Some people around here forget that. Why are you so agenst unions? Why do you think its ok to pay some of the hardest working americans next to nothing? Why doyou feel bad for these big business owners who have more money than they know what to do with, and only want more? I would really like to hear your answers for them questions (not being sarcastic), i would just love to hear someone explain that without sounding like a self centered d*ck. Another thing...everyone likes to get on the steelworkers unions, but i never hear anyone say anything about the teachers who are always going on strike? Unions did not take down the steel industry in PA, greed, corruption, and republican views did. Obama has stated many times about reopening mills to make steel to produce new forms of energy, he has stated many times about giving automakers tax cuts and providing them with the money to make good products in america. Obama, and his wife also turned down high paying jobs to go to parts of chicago that were devestated by mills shutting down, and he helped them people. The mills either moved overseas, or down south were they can get away with paying people 8 or 9 dollars an hour, and not give them benefits. Do you think steelworkers and coal miners are worth 8 or 9 dollars an hour? Is that what you are saying?? I will say this, unions are not what they used to be...Regan changed that forever. Many unions now are in bed with the companys.
As for disabled people like my mother.... Bush has made it so hard for her to get any help. Trying to cut medicade, she doesent get much money to begin with and shouldnt have to pay out the a** for medicade. Republicans are all for cutting medicade and medicare. My grandmas prescriptions have gone up so much in the last 8 years, if she doesent take them prescriptions she will die. Im using them as an example, but this goes for many many people across america.
Privitizing SS is a joke...one of the dumbest ideas i have ever heard. There are many people now who dont live much longer than 65...and you should be able to retire young enough to enjoy yourself. Every american should have healthcare, nobodys life is worth more than anyone elses. I have it now, and i only pay 50 a month for it, and have a very low deductable. I would like to see everyone be able to get the medical care that they need. I remember what it was like not having it, and the medical bills i pay every month reminds me of it. When i lived in that right to work republican state i couldnt get it, and yes i worked. I couldnt afford 300 dollars a month for healthcare.
I lived in south carolina...ALL republican. Taxes on food, cloths, and everything else. Very high taxes you have to pay on your car every year, higher cost of living....and LOWER wages...much lower wages. Right to work state, no different than slavery. I worked 3 jobs down there in the course of a year, not one offered benefits for a price i could afford on there low wages. The minimum wage down there is 5.15 an hour, and all other jobs you dont make near what you would make around here. They had a higher cost of living also. The only taxes you would save on down there is if you owned a home, its cheeper...but i rented, so i got screwed with all there other high taxes. Why do i bring this up? Because the whole country will be like this if John Mccain gets in office. I kissed the ground i walked on when i got back home to PA. Oh also SC had a lot more people on welfare than most democratic states, 2nd highest number of HS dropouts in america, much more poor state, and low low wages. Let John Mccain in office, and the whole country will be like this. John Mccains very good friend is one of the republicans whos at fault for SCs horid economy...Lindsey Gram.
Also your views and ideas have failed for the last 8 years. That is a fact you cannot deny. Its obvious your ideas do not work. Look at what Redneck george has done to the world...do you not see anything wrong with that?
1. As for your slavery quote, John Mccain is for slavery...not based on a color but slavery for everyone. He wants to make a Federal Right to work law...which means employees have NO rights, cant form unions, get lower pay, no healthcare unless you pay out the a** for it, you can be fired at anytime without reason, you can be forced to work 12 hours a day without a break, your company pretty much owns you....i seen how that works because i was in a right to work state for a year, and all i can say is thank god for PA. So voting for Mccain you must not think slavery is a bad thing.
I have not been able to find anything about McCain wanting a Federal Right to Work law. If you can show such please point it out and I'll be happy to look at it.
I'm all for Right to Work. Interestingly enough Right to Work frees workers from slavery! Previously unions forced employees to join a union in order to work in a particular place of employment. I think that is abhorrent. If one notices the states that have right to work laws have been the states that have grown and prospered while states like Ohio and PA are decades behind.
2. LOOK AT WHAT YOU PAY FOR GAS...DO YOU LIKE THAT? ITS BECAUSE THE REPUBLICANS ARE IN BED WITH THE BIG OIL COMPANYS, AND DONT CARE ABOUT YOU.
No it's commodity speculators that drove oil prices up much like the real estate lackey's did.
3. LOOK AT ARE ECONOMY AFTER SOME DUMB REDNECK HAS RAN THIS COUNTRY FOR 8 YEARS, 6 OF WHICH WERE COMPLETLEY CONTROLLED BY REPUBLICANS.
6 years were not totally controlled by Republicans. Check the congressional record and how congress and the senate work.
The economy actually did well with Bush with uninterrupted economic growth from 2002-2008 with an increase in GDP each quarter.
The current crisis has to do with Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac and others making risky and unsound loans with encouragement and corruption among congressional democrats.
4. WE ARE IN A RESSESION, THATS A FACT
Not a fact yet. We had GDP growth this year. For a recession to happen you have to have two quarters of negative GDP growth.
5. , WALSTREET HAS COLAPSED
It was time for a reorganization on Wall Street. Time to get back to basics. Wall Street has had hard times before and every time has come out better for it.
6. , WE HAVE A 170 BILLION DOLLAR DEBT,
Our governments debt is almost $10 Trillion and the public has about $66 Trillion in consumer debt. We all need to stop treating debt=income.
Again I lovingly broke up some of your comments to make some points.
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