Liberate beer sales in Pennsylvania please (Philadelphia, Pittsburgh: broker, high schools, calculation)

[pman]

Originally Posted by Ohiogirl81

Completely unfounded. On what planet do you think Pennsylvania will not collect taxes on every ounce of liquor sold? This argument has no basis in logic, or in practice. You can bet the farm that every other state that allows more relaxed sales of alcohol collects taxes on those sales.


And I'm not sure what you were reading, for pretty much everything I post on this topic indicates that I am well aware of that fact. But if Pennsylvania were to allow private stores to sell wine, these types of shops would spring up all over the place ... creating jobs. Zowie. What a concept.

the article I posted does a good job at refuting the idea that it's tax revenue. most of the revenue comes form the tax, not the stores. it's not outrageous to think that revenue from increased sales (the most populous parts of the state are all close to a state border), income tax, property tax, and new licensing would more than offset the $80 million the state derives from store operation.

[mtv123]

Ohiogirl,
Of course they will collect taxes. My mistake. I didn't clarify. Right now they collect margin too. They control the whole process of selling the product. So they are making money on sales tax but they are also making money on the mark up. Yes, I agree that specialty liquor and or wine shops would be great for the State and would create jobs. The Unions on the other hand feel we will lose jobs when the State stores start closing. It is a catch 22 in some peoples eyes. I simjply wanted to clarify that this isn't the Beer Distributor owners' fault. If the State creates a law 77 years ago and wants to change it now, they need to compromise with Beer Distributors. If all the Beer Distributors had no debt and no mortgage I agree that they could compete and stay open. Unfortunately, that is not the case. According to Manta.com there are 9200 listings for Grocery Stores/Convenience stores in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Compare that with the 1200 licenses currently issued to Beer Distributors. Who gets to sell beer? Everyone? It isn't as simple as "free my beer" and/or comparing ourselves to Illinois. I agree with your ideas, I just don't think it is going to be that easy.

[pman]

Originally Posted by mtv123

Ohiogirl,
Of course they will collect taxes. My mistake. I didn't clarify. Right now they collect margin too. They control the whole process of selling the product. So they are making money on sales tax but they are also making money on the mark up. Yes, I agree that specialty liquor and or wine shops would be great for the State and would create jobs. The Unions on the other hand feel we will lose jobs when the State stores start closing. It is a catch 22 in some peoples eyes. I simjply wanted to clarify that this isn't the Beer Distributor owners' fault. If the State creates a law 77 years ago and wants to change it now, they need to compromise with Beer Distributors. If all the Beer Distributors had no debt and no mortgage I agree that they could compete and stay open. Unfortunately, that is not the case. According to Manta.com there are 9200 listings for Grocery Stores/Convenience stores in the commonwealth of Pennsylvania. Compare that with the 1200 licenses currently issued to Beer Distributors. Who gets to sell beer? Everyone? It isn't as simple as "free my beer" and/or comparing ourselves to Illinois. I agree with your ideas, I just don't think it is going to be that easy.

actually, that article mentions that some stores actually lose money despite being a monopoly. while they control markup, they do a poor job controlling costs and providing what customers want. the only real loser is the unions whose unfriendly and unqualified workers would no longer be needed. and yes, if the system changes, people who own distributors should be compensated.

[bs13690]

Looking back, I actually had better access to beer as a teenager because of PA's laws. If I got turned down at a bar for a takeout I could hit another one down the road. They are a lot more strict carding you in a grocery store.

[Ohiogirl81]

Why do you think the current beer distributors would go out of business? Grocery stores and convenience stores aren't going to sell cases of beer; they don't have the space.

There's no reason to believe the market wouldn't stay strong for cases, especially given that they're so readily available in the state, and given that people are used to buying beer by the case and prefer to do so.

The only people standing to lose from liberating alcohol sales are the state store union workers (who are overpaid anyway -- think of the $$ the state will save on their salaries and pensions!) and the tavern owners (who are gouging us by the sixer anyway, so screw 'em).

The state will still make its money via liquor and sales taxes.

[mtv123]

Ohiogirl,
Some Distributors would go out of business simply because supply and demand would kill the current system. Like I said in an old thread, if 5 to 10 entities steal 5, 10 or 30 cases each that will add up and could be just enough to put a Distributor with any kind of debt service under. Believe it or not Beer Distributors work on minimal margins and rely on pure volume to keep the doors open. I know it sounds crazy but a $20 cases of beer doesn't cost a distributor $3 bucks.

Again, not all would go under (ie. D's in college towns) but I strongly believe most would.

BTW - First the Grocery Store chains want six and twelve packs and then they'll want cases and then they'll want wine and spirits. It is Greed! I get that people want convenience...I really do. I just don't think Big Chains deserve to sell whatever they want while killing the little guy.

Please....Support small business whenever possible!

[mtv123]

Originally Posted by pman

actually, that article mentions that some stores actually lose money despite being a monopoly. while they control markup, they do a poor job controlling costs and providing what customers want. the only real loser is the unions whose unfriendly and unqualified workers would no longer be needed. and yes, if the system changes, people who own distributors should be compensated.

I think the controlling of costs comes down to the salaries. Ya know, there was talk of the Golden Parachute a few years back. I think it was Ridge that wanted to sell each license for a million dollars. The problem with this is they were going to require that each owner could only hold the license for 10 years and then they would have to give it up. That makes no sense in terms of equity. I think a great alternative would be to issue one new license to sell liquor and wine in each county and have people bid on the license. Let them compete and require them to buy the liquor from the State at a discount. Then, slowly phase out the State stores. As for the employees they shouldn't be screwed so give them a severance. Hey, maybe some of the liquor store employees will even get hired by the private owners...who knows. It seems simple enough right???

[PeeAye Native]

The cover story from Philadelphia Weekly is this very topic: PA's Disgraceful Liquor Laws | Cover Story | News and Opinion | Philadelphia Weekly

[rugerjitsu]

Originally Posted by PeeAye Native

The cover story from Philadelphia Weekly is this very topic: PA's Disgraceful Liquor Laws | Cover Story | News and Opinion | Philadelphia Weekly

you gotta be kidding me with this crap. seriously? this is the best PA can come up with?? really makes you wonder...

[Ohiogirl81]

Originally Posted by PeeAye Native

The cover story from Philadelphia Weekly is this very topic:

"state-store cold sore"??

This state is governed by idiots.

Originally Posted by mtv123

Please....Support small business whenever possible!

While it sure is nice to be able to run through the beer/wine aisle in the grocery store after a long day and pick up a bottle or a six-pack along with your dinner. But if you're looking for something new, or just want a different experience, the privately owned wine or wine and beer shops are wonderful. When I lived in Ohio I bought most of my beer and wine at wine shops, owned by people who knew what the heck they were selling. Which leads me to ...

Hey, maybe some of the liquor store employees will even get hired by the private owners

Doubtful, because the private owners will want sales staff to know a little something about the products. Liquor store employees in Pa. don't know squat except what time their break is.