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And I wasn't aware that women in the US with poor medical outcomes were prohibited from terminating the pregnancy. And last time I checked the Netherlands has NICUs etc and a better outcome when it comes to infant mortality. BTW the US as a whole is not ranked #1 at all as a place to obtain medical care, so I'm not sure why people are under the illusion that it is some sort of pancea. Sure compared to alot of places I'd rather be here but it isn't the only place where intelligent Drs work.
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Originally Posted by Niners fan
#1 I have seen stats showing the opposite, ie, the number of people who die in Canada and the UK because they had to wait so long for MRIs or Cat Scans when they had cancer that the cancer was too far advanced to do anything once the imaging was finally done.
#2 Is that why there are Canadian companies dedicated to helping Canadians arrange medical services from the US?
The infant mortality rate in the US is skewed downward. This is due to the fact that many babies that would be aborted due to a medical condition or born stillborn here are delivered and an attempt is made to save them. Since many of them die in the course of treatment it affects our infant mortality rate. In countries with less sophisticated care the babies would not have been born alive.
So why are you all such conditioned sheep into never questioning the over-priced medical bills? That is where the problem lies -- not in the need for nor lack of insurance.
You are absolutely right. People rarely stand up and say, "I'm not paying this outrageous sum! This is ridiculous!"
Why? Because they figure that their health insurance company will pick up the tab.
Anytime you go to buy anything else, you usually check out the price before you buy, right? Not so with health care. Doctors charge any fee they like and assume you'll pay -- at least in the U.S., that is.
These assertions are highly disputable. Doctors in the US are no more intellectually capable than doctors from anywhere else on planet earth. Furthermore, the US system, as least concerning how it is financed, is actually the laughing stock of a good part of the world.
Pointing up the weakness of other systems is no defense for the weaknesses of the US system.
The fact is, for example, that many European countries spend half as much on medical care as a percentage of GDP for twice as much coverage.
There are success stories and horror stories on all sides, so, again, pointing up the weaknesses of the "other" system is not a valid argument in defense of "our" system.
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Originally Posted by jenn02674
#1 - This is the incorrect propaganda that is being spread. If you have a life threatening condition, you are put on the top of the list. VERY rarely, does someone die waiting for treatment in Canada, the UK, or France. It actually happens much more often here in the US.
#2 - Sure Canadians love to complain about their healthcare system but when you actually ask most of them, they sure as heck wouldn't want the US system.
And who says we have to have a system just like Canada anyway. Why can't we figure out something that works for US? Are we that incapable?
I just don't understand the whole 3rd world mentality of why should I pay for someone elses medical treatment. We HAVE to take care of our people or it will be the downfall of the United States. We are paying for it anyway, but we are paying for a crappy system where people die when it could have been prevented and we don't have much if any choice in treatment options anyway. Doctors don't decide treatment. Unless we have millions of dollars in the bank if the insurance company won't pay or approve a treatment, guess what we won't get it. This happens way more than people realize.
The new systme may not have to be exactly like Canada or the UK or France, but it has to be something drastically different from what we have now. It doesn't mean free handouts but medical care is something that should be guaranteed for everyone, regardless of ability to pay. The same concept as school for children, police, and firefighting.
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Originally Posted by b75
And it cracks me up when people act like there aren't wait times in the US for tests etc. Heck I live near NYC & I know someone who had Stage IV cancer that could NOT get in for test in a timely fashion. I'm going to presume it wouldn't have made a difference since she was dead within 3 months but...The only difference is that in Canada someone who is rich can't buy someone else's spot with a more dire need, from the Dr or medical establishment. In the US you can feel free to step on the carcass on your way out the door.
And btw for a country that is so well reputed medically why are our infant mortality rates ranked at around the same spots as some 3rd world countries. Why do places like Sweden beat us when it come to medical care (you know with their horrific universal medical care)? I'm not saying this is a bad place to be if you get sick, but let's not let nationalism get in the way of reality here.
Obviously no one read what I wrote, because I am being slammed for stuff I didn't say or was taken out of context.
1. I didn't say I wanted or thought we should have a have a system like Canada's. I was simply giving a viewpoint (which was not mine btw) that maybe universal healthcare isn't all it's cracked up to be.
2. I never said that we didn't have to wait here in the US. Obviously we do have to wait for some tests and appointments. And for the person that said he had to wait a month for a well child checkup that is different. It's a physical, I think there is a big difference for a check up and a diagnostic test.
Most people realize that they are going to have to wait for a physical. Surprise that's what happens when you go to a GOOD doctor. You can't get right in the door. I'm sure though if you're not picky you could find a different dr. in your city that will see you within a week.
3. I never said we had the BEST doctors. But they are by far not the worst and I would say they are very good. OBVIOUSLY I was talking about smaller countries that don't have sufficient healthcare.
4. If you don't want me to compare to other healthcare systems how are we ever going to improve our system? How are you going to learn a better way if you don't compare to better or worse situations?
Everyone wants to complain about our healthcare. They all think the grass will be greener on the other side and they have the perfect solution. Well come up with some solutions that will please everybody, it's not going to happen. If someone did, I would assume it would already be in place. Bottom line is we have educated dr.'s and decent healthcare. And yes it sucks that everyone can't obtain it due to not having insurance. Do you really think this should be on the top of the US's list of problems to fix?? Along with the war, immigration, terrorism, welfare...the list goes on and on. It's just another thing that people can b***h about, but nothing will ever happen.
Umm yes - accessing life saving medical treatment should be a top priority especially given that this is the leading cause of bankruptcy amongst insured Americans. Right now we have the fox in the hen house - health care is a for profit corporate game instead of a fundamental right in this country which is beyond wrong and disgusting.
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Originally Posted by msjack
Obviously no one read what I wrote, because I am being slammed for stuff I didn't say or was taken out of context.
1. I didn't say I wanted or thought we should have a have a system like Canada's. I was simply giving a viewpoint (which was not mine btw) that maybe universal healthcare isn't all it's cracked up to be.
2. I never said that we didn't have to wait here in the US. Obviously we do have to wait for some tests and appointments. And for the person that said he had to wait a month for a well child checkup that is different. It's a physical, I think there is a big difference for a check up and a diagnostic test.
Most people realize that they are going to have to wait for a physical. Surprise that's what happens when you go to a GOOD doctor. You can't get right in the door. I'm sure though if you're not picky you could find a different dr. in your city that will see you within a week.
3. I never said we had the BEST doctors. But they are by far not the worst and I would say they are very good. OBVIOUSLY I was talking about smaller countries that don't have sufficient healthcare.
4. If you don't want me to compare to other healthcare systems how are we ever going to improve our system? How are you going to learn a better way if you don't compare to better or worse situations?
Everyone wants to complain about our healthcare. They all think the grass will be greener on the other side and they have the perfect solution. Well come up with some solutions that will please everybody, it's not going to happen. If someone did, I would assume it would already be in place. Bottom line is we have educated dr.'s and decent healthcare. And yes it sucks that everyone can't obtain it due to not having insurance. Do you really think this should be on the top of the US's list of problems to fix?? Along with the war, immigration, terrorism, welfare...the list goes on and on. It's just another thing that people can b***h about, but nothing will ever happen.
You are absolutely right. People rarely stand up and say, "I'm not paying this outrageous sum! This is ridiculous!"
Why? Because they figure that their health insurance company will pick up the tab.
Anytime you go to buy anything else, you usually check out the price before you buy, right? Not so with health care. Doctors charge any fee they like and assume you'll pay -- at least in the U.S., that is.
You can check out the price ahead of time, especially if you are paying cash. One of the problems is that every insurance company has their own reimbursement rate and there's no way for a hospital or doctor's office to know ahead of time what the insurance company is going to pay. They are at their mercy. That's why it is difficult to get an estimate if you're going to have your doctor bill your insurance company.
On the other hand, your insurance company should be able to provide you with a list of what they will pay. I know ahead of time that an ambulance trip will cost me $75, and that they'll pay 80% of charges as long as I go to an in-network provider. I also know that I'll pay a maximum of $3000 out of my pocket each year - they cover 100% beyond that.
The doctor's office or hospital would love to tell you exactly how much your care will cost and they will do that as long as you are paying cash. Your insurance company is the one screwing that up for you.
Umm yes - accessing life saving medical treatment should be a top priority especially given that this is the leading cause of bankruptcy amongst insured Americans. Right now we have the fox in the hen house - health care is a for profit corporate game instead of a fundamental right in this country which is beyond wrong and disgusting.
You can always choose to go to non-profit hospitals and to use non-profit insurance companies.
Umm yes - accessing life saving medical treatment should be a top priority especially given that this is the leading cause of bankruptcy amongst insured Americans. Right now we have the fox in the hen house - health care is a for profit corporate game instead of a fundamental right in this country which is beyond wrong and disgusting.
We already have access to it. If someone is dying or very sick all they have to do is call 911 and someone will come and....surprise... take them to a hospital. And yes they will have bills, but if they can prove that they are indigent, or even if they don't make/have a lot of money most hospitals will write off most or even all of the balance. So don't act like American citizens don't have access to healthcare, because that is the farthest thing from the truth.
And yet medical expenses accounts for the majority of reasons that insured Americans declare bankruptcy...
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Originally Posted by msjack
We already have access to it. If someone is dying or very sick all they have to do is call 911 and someone will come and....surprise... take them to a hospital. And yes they will have bills, but if they can prove that they are indigent, or even if they don't make/have a lot of money most hospitals will write off most or even all of the balance. So don't act like American citizens don't have access to healthcare, because that is the farthest thing from the truth.
If no one had insurance then the lines for healthcare would be down and around the block.
Do you think it's right that someone who is very sick has to wait in the waiting room for up to 8 hours?? That's what's happening now, and I'm sure it will only get worse. A trend has started where a lot of people who don't have insurance go to the ER for minor ailments. So the really sick people don't get the care they need. I was told by someone in the ER, the only way to get seen right away is to come by ambulance. That's not fair.
Yes, I agree prices are way too high, but that is the way it has to be. If you want to have top doctors, top machines, and top research somebody has to pay for it. Our country isn't ranked highly in the medical world for nothing.
I was talking to someone that was from Canada where they have the healthcare for everyone. Which at the time I thought was the answer. I was willing to pay higher taxes so everyone could have insurance. However, she said it's not all that it's cracked up to be. She said because of that, they may only have one MRI or CT scan machine at a hospital or county. So patients end up waiting months for tests and treatment. Say you get diagnosed with cancer. Well when you get cancer they send you for a PET scan. Well if you lived in Canada, you might have to wait months for that PET scan, which during your cancer is growing and spreading. Then once you get the test then you could wait more months to get the actual treatment. You could die before you even get treated.
If you don't want healthcare then fine, don't get it. I didn't have insurance for years and it worried me everyday. I'm one who thinks it's worth it, if you get a PPO or a higher insurance. I don't know why anyone would pay for a high deductible plan anyways. They won't drop you because you will be paying your high deductible before they have to pay. Something like that may not even be worth having. You pay so much out of pocket before they even pay. It's worth it to have a plan where you may pay a higher premium but they will cover a lot more things and for a lot more money with a smaller deductible. Anyone have any questions about health insurance, I've been a medical biller for 10 years, so please feel free to ask.
You don't buy a high deduct because you want it but for those with $10/hr jobs w/ no benies, you may not even afford the 350/400/mo for a high deduct. You make a case for those not buying anything and showing up at the ER.
We already have access to it. If someone is dying or very sick all they have to do is call 911 and someone will come and....surprise... take them to a hospital. And yes they will have bills, but if they can prove that they are indigent, or even if they don't make/have a lot of money most hospitals will write off most or even all of the balance. So don't act like American citizens don't have access to healthcare, because that is the farthest thing from the truth.
The hospitals 'write off' billions every year in uncompensated care that is given to these 'indigent' people. They make up for it by raising the prices for people who 'can' pay including the health insurance companies. This results in higher premiums - and is now a cause of the middle class not being able to afford health insurance and care.
For example, my DH had an arthritic flair up from an old sports injury last summer when we were on vacation.....he was in extreme pain and had no choice but to go to the ER (in a very rural hospital) to get a prescription for vicodin. The MD did nothing but write out a prescription for him for 10 vicodin and send him on his way. This visit cost $500! This was in a community where no doubt there is a high indigent and uninsured population, so it is nice to know we were able to help that hospital stay in business.....we were probably a small fraction of the pts who actually paid the bill (actually his ins paid some of it) or weren't on medicaid.
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