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All dogs and cats should be spayed/neutered for sure to stop the population from growing. But, the animals who are here need good homes.
Once they're in the house, pets need a pack leader (human) who gives some rules. I've seen pets who can't behave because of their human not taking some control and taking role of the pack leader. The pet becomes alpha and the human subordinate. Not health and then the pet can get behavioral issues. Not doing them a favor w/ that situation.
I live in a community on the edge of a desert, and coyotes roam the area. Our neighbors across the street have two large dogs confined to their house most of the time, although sometimes they do get to spend time on their small patio (behind a wall). These dogs never see anyone but the owners and the owners never walk them. We do hear them bark now and then at javelinas or other dogs that pass by.
A few days ago a group of coyotes gathered on a hill that overlooks the dogs' patio and started calling with the usual howls and oddly some dog-like barks mixed in. I’d never heard this mixed cadence before and then I realized the coyotes were just taunting the two dogs — dogs locked up in their prison...
Simple question: is it cruel to confine pets to our homes?
Is a dog really fulfilling his God given natural role on earth by being cooped up in a human’s home?
OP, the post title "Does the desire for pets create unintended suffering?" brought up memories of the various polliwogs, caterpillars, etc., that I kept in the shed as a young child, only to forget about them and them find them dried out and dead later. (My mother would have rescued them, had she known.) I wish I could go back and undo those early pet keeping experiences. I feel bad about how the I made the little creatures suffer.
I kept fish for most of my life, and although I did a pretty good job of caring for them, I still don't think any fish can be happy in an aquarium or tank. I've finally matured to the point where I can care more about the fish than my enjoyment in having them.
I've had cats and dogs over the years and I know they were happy. However, I just happened to live in places were the cats were able to roam at will, which is especially important for cats.
Nowadays, most people keeps their cats indoors, but most cats need to roam and it creates psychological issues in them when they can't. I know people say that keeping cats indoors isn't bad for them, but then I meet their cats and see that it's not true.
Unfortunately, most cats kill birds, so cats shouldn't be allowed to roam because of that–and the issue with cars too. Even though I love them I'm not going to have cats anymore because it would be cruel to keep one indoors but bad for birds if I didn't.
With dogs it's different. For many dog breeds, as long as they get enough exercise, mental stimulation, and social interaction, most dogs seem perfectly happy to be part of a human pack. If someone has a dog from a working breed though, they may need to do a lot of extra work to keep that dog happy. Huskies and border collies weren't meant to sit around in a house all day. If that's what you want, get a pug.
I've had cats and dogs over the years and I know they were happy. However, I just happened to live in places were the cats were able to roam at will, which is especially important for cats.
Nowadays, most people keeps their cats indoors, but most cats need to roam and it creates psychological issues in them when they can't.
My cats have always been indoor kitties and they do not have "psychological issues," whatever that means. They have very different personalities -- some are very affectionate, some more aloof; some very smart, some not so much -- but that doesn't translate to the need for a kitty shrink. Geez.
Some of the posts in this thread are just silly (and that's not really the word I want to use).
Some seem to miss that the domestication of animals is what allowed Humans to rise into civilizations.
Agriculture is what allowed Civilization. Period.
Draft Animals
Agriculture is difficult without traction, and domesticated Water Buffalo, Cattle, Horses, Donkeys, Elephants allow that.
Livestock
Dairy from these provided important nutrients; fat and protein.
Herds raised for their meat meant that we didn't have to follow herds of Buffalo, deer, etc...
Sheep provided important fiber that meant we could be more easily clothed and not be reliant on leather or fig leaves...
Poultry
Chickens (and ducks and quail in parts of the world) provide a renewable source of protein for minimal input. Males can be eaten and are an additional important protein source.
DOGS
Dogs alerted humans to intruders, both Human and non-human, since time immemorial...
They were domesticated and guarded the homestead. Some herded. Others protected herds. Others protected the shop and home from those wishing to do harm.
Some hunted, baying and chasing everything from rabbits to Bears.
Others assisted fishermen, retrieving their nets or fish that got out.
Cats
Cats hunt mice and rats. Mice and rats spread disease, and consume insane amounts of foodstocks needed for humans and their livestock.
^^But none of this happened without self selection on the part of early wolves or whatever, and selective breeding from humans...^^ One doesn't get these traits without the dogs first showing an affinity for the human camps without showing a threat. The fact that Buffalo were so easy to nearly exterminate is a testament to the Cattle families general docility and suitability to captivity and domestication. Or, look at water buffalo; they're wild in Africa but also domesticated elsewhere. Cats? They probably knew a good thing when they saw it. Not a cat fan myself.
Europeans have had domesticated dogs for over 30,000 years. That's 27,000 years before the first established civilizations. Think about that. When one considers it that way, its no more abnormal or unnatural than using tools or wearing clothes.
I kept fish for most of my life, and although I did a pretty good job of caring for them, I still don't think any fish can be happy in an aquarium or tank. I've finally matured to the point where I can care more about the fish than my enjoyment in having them.
I really don't think that fish are developed to the point of feeling "joy" or "happiness." They can be stressed, but if their needs are met (food, clean water), they are pretty content if bigger fish aren't trying to eat them.
Quote:
Originally Posted by TimAZ
I live in a community on the edge of a desert, and coyotes roam the area. Our neighbors across the street have two large dogs confined to their house most of the time, although sometimes they do get to spend time on their small patio (behind a wall). These dogs never see anyone but the owners and the owners never walk them. We do hear them bark now and then at javelinas or other dogs that pass by.
A few days ago a group of coyotes gathered on a hill that overlooks the dogs' patio and started calling with the usual howls and oddly some dog-like barks mixed in. I’d never heard this mixed cadence before and then I realized the coyotes were just taunting the two dogs — dogs locked up in their prison...
No, they were trying to draw them out to kill and eat them. Or at least kill them for being in "their" territory.
My cats have always been indoor kitties and they do not have "psychological issues," whatever that means. They have very different personalities -- some are very affectionate, some more aloof; some very smart, some not so much -- but that doesn't translate to the need for a kitty shrink. Geez.
Some of the posts in this thread are just silly (and that's not really the word I want to use).
It is safer, but it is safer for your dog if you don't take it for walks either. Cats need mental stimulation, some more than others. Just like dogs need exercise and mental stimulation, some more than others. I tend to agree that they can be perfectly content kept indoors but some do require a lot more effort on your end to keep them that way.
Not trying to make it about race, but I grew up in a predominately black and Spanish neighborhood, and I have to say, my Spanish friends were the ones who owned and loved dogs, and my black friend's parents didn't.
FWIW, I suspect what you are reaching for here is that this is cultural, not racial.
One of my previous jobs was working as an inspector with a county animal control agency. We patrolled neighborhoods checking on expired rabies vaccination records (because valid vaccinations were required under state law), licenses, investigating nuisance complaints, animal cruelty accusations, and potential health code violations. I have to say, possibly 95% of the pet homes we visited had well treated and healthy pets. However there's always 10% that end up creating 90% of the trouble and require 90% of the agency's attention. These folks are not going to treat their animals well no matter what mechanism is used to apply the pressure; moral judgment by others or legal enforcement.
I also noticed differences in the "attitudes" of cultural groups in regard to pet ownership. I dealt with Hispanic, Indian, Asian, African-American, European homes everywhere. It surprised me a bit at first as I'd never encountered it before, but it was there. Again, I wouldn't consider this "racial" at all, just a result of multi-generational attitudes about "pet" keeping. It certainly didn't apply to the same degree across the board.
Last edited by Parnassia; 10-22-2019 at 02:55 PM..
I suspect the desire for purebred pets creates unintended suffering, in that they are more likely to have health issues. Dogs have been bred for a domestic lifestyle, so it is probably more cruel to release them into a wild environment for which they are not fully adapted.
My cats have always been indoor kitties and they do not have "psychological issues," whatever that means. They have very different personalities -- some are very affectionate, some more aloof; some very smart, some not so much -- but that doesn't translate to the need for a kitty shrink. Geez.
Some of the posts in this thread are just silly (and that's not really the word I want to use).
I adopted a cat who lived near us (his owner gave him to us cuz he kept coming to our house). He was an inside/outside cat and had been for 4-5 years I think. When we adopted him, I told him "no" when he'd go to the door. He persisted about 2 days, settled in and loved being indoors. He got more playful, happy and content.
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