Would Philly really become the 6th Borough if..... (Philadelphia, York: real estate, loft)

[57thandMalcolm]

Philly in terms of architecture AND density (taking both into account is key) is probably as close as you're gonna get to an NYC boro (Manhattan not included), in that sense it could technically be the sixth borough right now. Only in an abstract sense though. Phillys culture (density and fact pacedness in large pockets instead of everywhere in the city, Philly toughness/hard nosed stance versus NYC indifference, slight southern influences) is different enough to make it its own animal. As far as commuting between the cities, The Bolt Bus, China Bus, and NJT already are decent options to NY. But I would love the Septa/NJ ride to be nonstop and just as cheap as it is now, that would be a serious improvement.

[jknic]

Originally Posted by PhaninWA

The train ride from Parsippany, NJ in Morris County to NY Penn is like 2 hours already. By your plan the commuters would have to leave Philly around 4 am in the morning to get to the City by 8...

That's because that train takes a longer more winding route and makes more stops. I know because I've ridden from about Parsippany (Denville Stop) to NYC and from Trenton to NYC and it's about the same.

[DarkWolf]

Originally Posted by jknic

That's because that train takes a longer more winding route and makes more stops. I know because I've ridden from about Parsippany (Denville Stop) to NYC and from Trenton to NYC and it's about the same.

That line and most of NJT , & Septa's networks are curvy and Trains have to go slow. But on the Northeast Corridor line most Trains even locals hit there top speeds of 90-130mph.

[FlyerNation]

Sorry, but Philly is its own ****ing city with its own media, suburbs, etc.

[jknic]

Originally Posted by Nexis4Jersey

That line and most of NJT , & Septa's networks are curvy and Trains have to go slow. But on the Northeast Corridor line most Trains even locals hit there top speeds of 90-130mph.

The NEC is also MUCH straighter than the M&E or the Montclair Booton Line which is why they are able to travel faster.

[pman]

why not just have Amtrak lower it's fares? I don't know about explode with population, but I think it would be good for certain areas. it's already about 70 min to north philly, except only one train per day stops there, and it's a ridiculous 1200/mo commute. there are plenty of wonderful old factories ready to be converted to lofts. don't think it would make phill the 6th borough, but there are worse things that could happen to north philly than to see an influx of people commuting to manhattan

[Blackbeauty212]

The reason you'll never see lower fares on Amtrak is because the NEC line is the Sole Workhorse of Amatrak. This one line supports the entire network all other routes are dead weight, except for maybe the Capital Limited (DC - Pitt - Cleveland - Chicago)

[pman]

Originally Posted by Blackbeauty212

The reason you'll never see lower fares on Amtrak is because the NEC line is the Sole Workhorse of Amatrak. This one line supports the entire network all other routes are dead weight, except for maybe the Capital Limited (DC - Pitt - Cleveland - Chicago)

there is a large and increasingly functional network out of chicago these days. I'd imagine it would be just as easy to get Amtrak to offer lower commuter fares as any other arrangement, perhaps more so since there are no union issues. If Amtrak were to turn Keystones into 10-14 car trains with $600/mo passes they'd likely do pretty well. I don't know that it would even lose money since it it's a short trip, fast, one crew, and wouldn't need a bar car (though one would be nice). Amtrak's best performing trains financially are all corridor trains like the one to Harrisburg (Keystone), Chicago-Milwaukee, the VA services, Downeaster, etc. the Pennsylvanian does okay as well. I'd also point out that the above issue would also affect the ability of commuters to run a service since Amtrak is even less likely to hand over a profitable low cost service to someone else to run on their own rails as to run it themselves. In fact, IMO, the whole region would be better off if NJT trains ran through to Metro North as well as to Philadelphia, if SEPTA ran to Baltimore (the PRR used to run commuter trains to baltimore from Philly).

[Shizzles]

Originally Posted by pman

why not just have Amtrak lower it's fares? I don't know about explode with population, but I think it would be good for certain areas. it's already about 70 min to north philly, except only one train per day stops there, and it's a ridiculous 1200/mo commute. there are plenty of wonderful old factories ready to be converted to lofts. don't think it would make phill the 6th borough, but there are worse things that could happen to north philly than to see an influx of people commuting to manhattan

The area in and around there is an utter warzone. NYC isn't even really all that gentrified, people hype it up beyond belief. NY has a long way to go before everyone is forced out into Philly or anywhere else for that matter.

Philly is it's own city with it's own style and that really isn't going to go anywhere anytime soon. And to be honest, outside of CC, the city is either ghetto or typical urban middle-working class rowhomes. NYers could get plenty of the same in Brooklyn or Queens if they so desired such.

[Shizzles]

Originally Posted by pman

there is a large and increasingly functional network out of chicago these days. I'd imagine it would be just as easy to get Amtrak to offer lower commuter fares as any other arrangement, perhaps more so since there are no union issues. If Amtrak were to turn Keystones into 10-14 car trains with $600/mo passes they'd likely do pretty well. I don't know that it would even lose money since it it's a short trip, fast, one crew, and wouldn't need a bar car (though one would be nice). Amtrak's best performing trains financially are all corridor trains like the one to Harrisburg (Keystone), Chicago-Milwaukee, the VA services, Downeaster, etc. the Pennsylvanian does okay as well. I'd also point out that the above issue would also affect the ability of commuters to run a service since Amtrak is even less likely to hand over a profitable low cost service to someone else to run on their own rails as to run it themselves. In fact, IMO, the whole region would be better off if NJT trains ran through to Metro North as well as to Philadelphia, if SEPTA ran to Baltimore (the PRR used to run commuter trains to baltimore from Philly).

People who commute on Amtrak tend to be cut from a more upper class cloth and therefore the corridor fares don't really phase them. Amtrak's issue is like all government agencies the amount and compensation of it's staff is out of line with what the private sector is doing.
The NEC, believe it or not is a money drain on the system. The reason is that Amtrak owns the ROW and infastructure and hence is on the hook for maintainence. The Long Distance trains run on the freight companies track and hence don't have those added costs.

We don't need the commuter railroads running every which way. All that will do is make running the systems that much more inefficent and put rail even further behind in this country. Running some basic R7 expresses from Market East to Trenton should be enough. Having to transfer isn't the end of the world....