Philadelphia 2035 (Washington, Franklin, Penn: associations, developing, cancel)

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

The architecture isn't daring enough, and that's because they're keeping the mall pretty much intact; that limits PREIT's freedom of action.

But it seems to me that the architecture is a lesser problem for the critics.

What people on this board (and similarly-minded critics elsewhere) seem to me to be most exercised about with the Gallery redo is that it will be an off-price outlet mall.

Most of these critics are jonesin' for honest-to-God high-end retail: Nordstrom, not Nordstrom Rack; Bloomingdale's rather than Burlington.

Working against them are some demographic facts.

One is that while the median household income has risen in much of "Greater Center City," some of those "better off" households consist of two or more individuals pooling their more modest resources in order to afford homes or apartments in hot neighborhoods. That doesn't leave as much money for fashion and baubles as many might guess. These people, like me, want to wear those designer threads (and for purposes of this argument, we will lump Brooks Brothers in with the "designers," for it too represents a distinctive approach to style and fashion) but can't afford to pay designer prices for them. It's this market that the upscale retailers seek to capture with their off-price clearance stores (Off 5th, Nordstrom Rack) and factory outlet stores (Brooks Brothers, Polo Ralph Lauren, Gap, Banana Republic).

1) PREIT is simply "settling", IMO, because Philadelphians are not good enough. So their goal, such as it is, is to build Gallery 2.0. After all the "demographic" you refer to won't mind. Well, *I* mind!

2)My impression of the merchandise in CC's Nordstrom Rack,for instance, is it's not clearance from full Nordstrom's but stuff especially bought for those stores. The shoes, though, look like regular Nordstrom's.

3.If we don't strive for excellence in this city we will never reach it entirely. Example. When I first started working for Penn in the mid-70s campus was pretty awful and there was actual blight in nearby places that wouldn't be acceptable now. It took vision to change the mentality at Penn. And, yes, lots of money. But it did change. All I'm really saying is what is wrong with aiming high?

[MikeNigh]

They really should just level the gallery and put a couple of super talls there with the regional rail access. If they want a suburban mall in CC then they should rebuild it across the street at CC standards - street facing entrances and windows etc. Any other money thrown at it is pretty much as waste.

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by kyb01

1) PREIT is simply "settling", IMO, because Philadelphians are not good enough. So their goal, such as it is, is to build Gallery 2.0. After all the "demographic" you refer to won't mind. Well, *I* mind!

2)My impression of the merchandise in CC's Nordstrom Rack,for instance, is it's not clearance from full Nordstrom's but stuff especially bought for those stores. The shoes, though, look like regular Nordstrom's.

3.If we don't strive for excellence in this city we will never reach it entirely. Example. When I first started working for Penn in the mid-70s campus was pretty awful and there was actual blight in nearby places that wouldn't be acceptable now. It took vision to change the mentality at Penn. And, yes, lots of money. But it did change. All I'm really saying is what is wrong with aiming high?

I agree with your sentiment. Which is exactly why I think that planning needs to take the drivers seat, and NOT developers. Though that's clearly easier said than done.

[cpomp]

Originally Posted by kyb01

1) PREIT is simply "settling", IMO, because Philadelphians are not good enough. So their goal, such as it is, is to build Gallery 2.0. After all the "demographic" you refer to won't mind. Well, *I* mind!

2)My impression of the merchandise in CC's Nordstrom Rack,for instance, is it's not clearance from full Nordstrom's but stuff especially bought for those stores. The shoes, though, look like regular Nordstrom's.

3.If we don't strive for excellence in this city we will never reach it entirely. Example. When I first started working for Penn in the mid-70s campus was pretty awful and there was actual blight in nearby places that wouldn't be acceptable now. It took vision to change the mentality at Penn. And, yes, lots of money. But it did change. All I'm really saying is what is wrong with aiming high?

Its interesting because both Nordstrom and Target ventured into Canadian markets recently. Target failed miserably and Nordstrom struggled for a while but eventually caught on. That is such a huge risk to enter into a new market like that, yet neither retailer has taken a chance to enter (and probably be very successful) in an undeserved American market..

And I just think we'd be better off if they just tore down the Gallery and started over. I was KoP yesterday and heard some hipe about the new retailers interested to open in the new expansion, so that slims it down even more for CC.

And I agree with the Penn statement. Drexel is finally starting to change its mentality after all these years of being Penns ugly sister. It takes years and 180 degree groundbreaking moves to change perceptions of an area.

[asiandudeyo]

Originally Posted by kyb01

1) PREIT is simply "settling", IMO, because Philadelphians are not good enough. So their goal, such as it is, is to build Gallery 2.0. After all the "demographic" you refer to won't mind. Well, *I* mind!

2)My impression of the merchandise in CC's Nordstrom Rack,for instance, is it's not clearance from full Nordstrom's but stuff especially bought for those stores. The shoes, though, look like regular Nordstrom's.

3.If we don't strive for excellence in this city we will never reach it entirely. Example. When I first started working for Penn in the mid-70s campus was pretty awful and there was actual blight in nearby places that wouldn't be acceptable now. It took vision to change the mentality at Penn. And, yes, lots of money. But it did change. All I'm really saying is what is wrong with aiming high?

Again I agree with you.
And in regard to number 2 as I put in bold, you are right. It is not your impression - it is reality. Outlet nowadays sells 85 % of their stuff EXCLUSIVELY for outlet. Nordstrom Rack is biggest culprit. And with that in mind, the merchandise sold in outlets are low quality. So in the sense, people who buy from outlet are still buying for the name brands NOT the quality. It is technically the same as buying H&M clothes - but change the label to Ralph Lauren. So in the essence, you are paying H&M quality clothes 2 - 3 times more.
And there are the difference in the label as well. For example, True religion exclusively sold in outlet will have blue Buddha embroided as the logo. So people in the know actually know whether it is the real deal or just some cheap outlet merchandise. The only outlet that sell real merchandise from last season is C21. But I am talking about their high-end merchandise.


Sandy I agree with you as well. There should eb a way for Philadelphians to shop nearby for outlet instead of going all the way to Pottstown.
I am glad that the Gallery might have those outlets people are craving for.
But what alot of people are tired of is how developers, in this case PREIT, think of Philly as a second class city that only deserve outlets (again nothing wrong with outlets).

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by MikeNigh

They really should just level the gallery and put a couple of super talls there with the regional rail access. If they want a suburban mall in CC then they should rebuild it across the street at CC standards - street facing entrances and windows etc. Any other money thrown at it is pretty much as waste.

I would actually have no problem with this idea. I like it, in fact.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by cpomp

Its interesting because both Nordstrom and Target ventured into Canadian markets recently. Target failed miserably and Nordstrom struggled for a while but eventually caught on. That is such a huge risk to enter into a new market like that, yet neither retailer has taken a chance to enter (and probably be very successful) in an undeserved American market..

And I just think we'd be better off if they just tore down the Gallery and started over. I was KoP yesterday and heard some hipe about the new retailers interested to open in the new expansion, so that slims it down even more for CC.

And I agree with the Penn statement. Drexel is finally starting to change its mentality after all these years of being Penns ugly sister. It takes years and 180 degree groundbreaking moves to change perceptions of an area.

I laughed a bit at the remark about Drexel. John Fry, Drexel prez, was Judith Rodin's exec vice prez at Penn in
the 90s. His "model" for Drexel is similar to what happened a Penn.

The minute I heard about the KoP expansion, my feeling was that it was just going to hurt CC.

[cpomp]

On one of my lunchtime walks it looks like ground is officially broken at 15th and Chestnut (W hotel site). Backhoes moving dirt around and there is a pit about 3 ft deep on most of the site now.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by kyb01

1) PREIT is simply "settling", IMO, because Philadelphians are not good enough. So their goal, such as it is, is to build Gallery 2.0. After all the "demographic" you refer to won't mind. Well, *I* mind!

2)My impression of the merchandise in CC's Nordstrom Rack,for instance, is it's not clearance from full Nordstrom's but stuff especially bought for those stores. The shoes, though, look like regular Nordstrom's.

3.If we don't strive for excellence in this city we will never reach it entirely. Example. When I first started working for Penn in the mid-70s campus was pretty awful and there was actual blight in nearby places that wouldn't be acceptable now. It took vision to change the mentality at Penn. And, yes, lots of money. But it did change. All I'm really saying is what is wrong with aiming high?

Keep in mind how the Gallery got there in the first place. . .fear of the Cherry Hill Mall & a perception of sales lost to it.

Also, I don't know anyone from South Jersey, south of Burlington County, or areas in Philadelphia where shopping is focused on Center City who frequented Franklin Mills from the day that it opened. However, an outlet mall is being built in South Jersey now. PREIT knows it. Look at this plan as something akin to a preemptive strike.

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by cpomp

Drexel is finally starting to change its mentality after all these years of being Penns ugly sister. It takes years and 180 degree groundbreaking moves to change perceptions of an area.

It's about mentality, but even more it's about $$$! Drexel had a miniscule endowment not so many years ago. But with good management, and the general national state of education bubbledom they've grown it into a respectable one. For much of its history, Drexel buildings were actually built on land that was owned by and leased from UPenn (and I'm sure some still are).