Philadelphia 2035 (Erie, Lancaster, York: map of, soccer, fish)

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

Agree and things do not change overnight

Camden is getting an influx of basically free money (mostly for business attraction)

My question on logistics is if Camden is to become an extension for living from CC, proximity to PATCO seem to be impartant. How far are these new proposals from the closest PATCO station, it seems the station is closer to Rutgers Camden and if people need to take a two seat ride is that as feasable with the river line

I'm sure you all are factoring in that it's in another state. Obviously it's not just proximity to CC that will make it work, if it does(I'm not as optimistic as some people here are). Any developer has to deal with Jersey politicians.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

Fair - in looking at the map most places are within a half mile walk of either the city hall (Camden) or Broadway stops

didnt realize they were as close

It's a dismal walk especially on weekends it seems. The last time I did it was for a Cirque de Soleil show which was north of the Aquarium. No people walking around at all. It felt abandoned. Funnily I would feel more comfortable at Broad and Erie where there are lots of people.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

The aquarium was supposed to jumpstart Camden. The state had to prop it up for years. The only thing that saved it was bringing people via ferry to the aquarium from Philadelphia. Everything that has been put on the riverfront was supposed to "get the ball rolling".

The Phila Zoo manages the Aquarium now which is probably the only reason it's functioning. And the Battleship NJ was supposed to convince people to just cross the river to see it and be a huge tourist attraction. Hasn't worked either.

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by kyb01

It's a dismal walk especially on weekends it seems. The last time I did it was for a Cirque de Soleil show which was north of the Aquarium. No people walking around at all. It felt abandoned. Funnily I would feel more comfortable at Broad and Erie where there are lots of people.

understood but there is a bit of a blank canvas with some interesting views; a little infill and some resteraunts/bars that get people there again can start the change

also I dont think this will develop as the urban allure of CC or expanded neighborhoods but maybe a hybrid allure that can tap a different segment

And I also agree with Roto that on thw whole a healthier Camden is a healthier region including the city - it doesnt have to be an either or though we still need to up the game on attracting good jobs in CC

the sum of the parts can be greater

[kidphilly]

Originally Posted by kyb01

The Phila Zoo manages the Aquarium now which is probably the only reason it's functioning. And the Battleship NJ was supposed to convince people to just cross the river to see it and be a huge tourist attraction. Hasn't worked either.

Both waterfronts are sort of lacking; I dont think that is solely an Camden issue

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by kyb01

The Phila Zoo manages the Aquarium now which is probably the only reason it's functioning. And the Battleship NJ was supposed to convince people to just cross the river to see it and be a huge tourist attraction. Hasn't worked either.

Decades & decades of attempts & nothing has worked yet. I've been in some of the premier bad areas in Philadelphia both in a car & on foot (walking from the subway) nothing is as disquieting as a trip to Camden, on foot from the speed line or in a car. I'll bet that not one of these people has driven south on Broadway. I'd also bet that not one of them knew that Mt Ephraim Ave or Federal St existed.

Camden has a crime problem. Until its dealt with nothing of significance is going to change. It's at least another generation away.

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

The aquarium was supposed to jumpstart Camden. The state had to prop it up for years. The only thing that saved it was bringing people via ferry to the aquarium from Philadelphia. Everything that has been put on the riverfront was supposed to "get the ball rolling".

I know people who went to Rutgers Camden & were escorted by armed guards to the speed line. My best friend worked for the courts for decades & was escorted to the Broadway station by armed guards. I know someone who invested hard earned money to buy a house in Camden & try to rehab it & had to walk away from it because materials were stolen immediately. Can you say the same?

It's apparently just fine with you that someone called me a hateful racist & then told me that I'm old & haven't been in Camden since the 50s & then made smart-ass comments. Well, try going to South Jersey & striking up conversations with people in real life & ask their opinions about Camden. Any race or ethnic group will do. You won't hear anything better than what I said.

There is a reason the county opened up a satellite office for the county employment services office in the suburbs. There's a reason that the county offices were moved to Mt Ephraim Ave. & it wasn't for convenience.

But I should be careful not to state the obvious.

I actually know a fair bit about the Aquarium & E-Centre era waterfront development, and how poorly it was planned. I wrote about it, interviewed Camden city planners and every business owner on Broadway who would talk to me (in real life even). I concluded that the waterfront development, as executed, was absolutely NOT planned to get the ball rolling. Rather it cut off and isolated the city from all the waterfront development such that it would be of minimal benefit to city businesses and neighborhoods. And from the way things went since, it appears that it may have in fact exacerbated their decline, as predicted.

Please don't get me confused with someone who called you names, conflate my statements with theirs, or otherwise put words in my mouth. Thanks! I don't really care what anyone else said. I have my own opinions that I believe are at least as informed anyone's.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by rotodome

I actually know a fair bit about the Aquarium & E-Centre era waterfront development, and how poorly it was planned. I wrote about it, interviewed Camden city planners and every business owner on Broadway who would talk to me (in real life even). I concluded that the waterfront development, as executed, was absolutely NOT planned to get the ball rolling. Rather it cut off and isolated the city from all the waterfront development such that it would be of minimal benefit to city businesses and neighborhoods. And from the way things went since, it appears that it may have in fact exacerbated their decline, as predicted.

Please don't get me confused with someone who called you names, conflate my statements with theirs, or otherwise put words in my mouth. Thanks! I don't really care what anyone else said. I have my own opinions that I believe are at least as informed anyone's.

And I've known plenty of people who have bailed from Camden over the years. They worked darned hard to get out. I called it a hell-hole. That's a lot better than they've called it.

At this point even the poor people are leaving. My sister taught school in another county & had a steady stream of new students from Camden for about the last 15 years.

There's a crime problem. It's not a garden variety crime problem. They can replicate the Taj Mahal on the waterfront & it won't help until they get the crime problem under control. That's at least another generation away.

[PhillyPhan95]

We get it, Camden needs a lot of work. Everybody and their mother knows this. I for one happen to think it has the urban bones to support a downtown revitalization, but a city wide revitalization may be a far time off. Can we get back on topic now? This is Philadelphia 2035, and while Camden certainly can be relevant to the city's development, I think we've veered away from productive discussion.

[cpomp]

Originally Posted by PhillyPhan95

We get it, Camden needs a lot of work. Everybody and their mother knows this. I for one happen to think it has the urban bones to support a downtown revitalization, but a city wide revitalization may be a far time off. Can we get back on topic now? This is Philadelphia 2035, and while Camden certainly can be relevant to the city's development, I think we've veered away from productive discussion.

How about all those nice new paved streets we are getting!