Philadelphia 2035 (York, Chester, King of Prussia: lodging, practice, short-term)

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

Agreed here, and it's probably the lack of intensive uses around it that has made Chinatown station the least-used rapid transit station on the SEPTA network. Not just the parking lot on top of it, but the many surface lots and blocks with only one or two buildings framing surface parking around this one too.

Did you know that SEPTA apparently doesn't even have employees collecting the fare at Chinatown station on saturdays? For a while now the people getting on at Chinatown on saturdays (afternoons) have to pay/show pass to the operator directly, like I hear they do during overnight service.

It's a little frustrating, as on more than one occasion people haven't understood (out of confusion and/or language barrier) and it has been such a time consuming ordeal to collect the fare I've almost missed my bus connection (which on a saturday means a long wait).

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by FamousBlueRaincoat

Did you know that SEPTA apparently doesn't even have employees collecting the fare at Chinatown station on saturdays? For a while now the people getting on at Chinatown on saturdays (afternoons) have to pay/show pass to the operator directly, like I hear they do during overnight service.

It's a little frustrating, as on more than one occasion people haven't understood (out of confusion and/or language barrier) and it has been such a time consuming ordeal to collect the fare I've almost missed my bus connection (which on a saturday means a long wait).

The station is also unstaffed the last hour or so that it is open on weeknights. Passengers boarding the last two northbound departures from 8th and Market (8:28 and 8:58) also have to pay their fare / show their pass to the operator.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by FamousBlueRaincoat

Very poor choice of words on my part very early in the AM. As it wasn't bad planning at all.

It is bad urbanism though, and it's a potent symbol for bad urbanism, whatever the reasons for it existing is. It's a subway station in the middle of a surface parking lot - and has been for a long time.

Inside of a surface parking lot is probably the worst place for a subway station to exist (aside from the precipice of a cliff, etc.). And surrounding a subway station is the worst place for a surface parking lot to exist (in the downtown of the 5th largest city in America anyway).

But you're right - it not really the planning, it's the state the land has sat in for a long time.

Plans made in the 70s = plans made during the Rizzo administration, for the most part. That would be the same administration that thought that it was a good idea to knock down a row of buildings from before the Victorian era & build a suburban mall on Market St., to compete with the Cherry Hill Mall. How close to urban can you imagine that that group came?

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by southbound_295

Plans made in the 70s = plans made during the Rizzo administration, for the most part. That would be the same administration that thought that it was a good idea to knock down a row of buildings from before the Victorian era & build a suburban mall on Market St., to compete with the Cherry Hill Mall. How close to urban can you imagine that that group came?

Except that one of the things we're talking about here is the Commuter Tunnel, which I would consider a good project, even if the price we paid for it was the mall on top of it.

However: we would have gotten more bang for the transit buck had he pushed the Northeast Spur subway instead. But he was trying to play to (a) the 'burbs (b) some of his core constituents, who hadn't yet come around on the subway.

[FamousBlueRaincoat]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

Except that one of the things we're talking about here is the Commuter Tunnel, which I would consider a good project, even if the price we paid for it was the mall on top of it.

However: we would have gotten more bang for the transit buck had he pushed the Northeast Spur subway instead. But he was trying to play to (a) the 'burbs (b) some of his core constituents, who hadn't yet come around on the subway.

I'm not completely sold on the commuter tunnel as being a good project, especially when compared to the alternative of the NE spur (or any BSL spur).

Very few people take advantage of the actual thru-service (such as taking a train from Doylestown to Thorndale). And very little of the thru-service is actually efficient compared to driving due to the nature of the railroads which were connected (my favorite point I've made multiple times that it takes 30 minutes to get from Broad and Lehigh to Broad and Glenwood...but also for example it takes two and a half hours to get from Doylestown to Thorndale, something almost nobody would take advantage of).

And as far as the main advantages of being able to get to any Center City stops like University City and Temple on any line - well, it wasn't THAT hard to do it before, with easy transfers to the BSL at Suburban, trolleys and MFL at Market East.

Had they been building an s-bahn system from scratch, something sort of resembling the regional rail system with the commuter tunnel would have been great. Dealing with the limitations of turning two existing railroads into one railroad, and that they were never going to get frequencies (still only one train per hour for most of the system for most of the day) that would impact ridership, I'm not so sure it was worth it.

And as you probably know, I speak as someone who has a slight benefit compared to other users from the tunnel - being able to take the CHW or CHE from any center city station station.

[southbound_295]

Originally Posted by FamousBlueRaincoat

I'm not completely sold on the commuter tunnel as being a good project, especially when compared to the alternative of the NE spur (or any BSL spur).

Very few people take advantage of the actual thru-service (such as taking a train from Doylestown to Thorndale). And very little of the thru-service is actually efficient compared to driving due to the nature of the railroads which were connected (my favorite point I've made multiple times that it takes 30 minutes to get from Broad and Lehigh to Broad and Glenwood...but also for example it takes two and a half hours to get from Doylestown to Thorndale, something almost nobody would take advantage of).

And as far as the main advantages of being able to get to any Center City stops like University City and Temple on any line - well, it wasn't THAT hard to do it before, with easy transfers to the BSL at Suburban, trolleys and MFL at Market East.

Had they been building an s-bahn system from scratch, something sort of resembling the regional rail system with the commuter tunnel would have been great. Dealing with the limitations of turning two existing railroads into one railroad, and that they were never going to get frequencies (still only one train per hour for most of the system for most of the day) that would impact ridership, I'm not so sure it was worth it.

And as you probably know, I speak as someone who has a slight benefit compared to other users from the tunnel - being able to take the CHW or CHE from any center city station station.

Rizzo was only looking at South Jersey, & seeing it as a major threat. The city was bleeding jobs & people. He wasn't looking at the people who followed the mill jobs to North Carolina. He was looking at people shifting across the Delaware to South Jersey. He saw the Cherry Hill Mall as a major threat, far out of proportion. He saw the world in black & white, almost devoid of shades of gray. If a few sales were being lost to the Cherry Hill Mall, well he was going to fix that. He got the same man who built the Cherry Hill Mall to agree to build the Gallery. When there was an outcry about tearing down the buildings & it was suggested to tunnel through them, James Rouse didn't know how to do that. He built Columbia, Maryland & numerous suburban malls from fields. Rizzo saw the Cherry Hill Mall as the enemy. He wanted the man who built it to build the Gallery.

The commuter tunnel was part of that. While you could get to it from PATCO, it was poorly marked.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by FamousBlueRaincoat

Very few people take advantage of the actual thru-service (such as taking a train from Doylestown to Thorndale). And very little of the thru-service is actually efficient compared to driving due to the nature of the railroads which were connected (my favorite point I've made multiple times that it takes 30 minutes to get from Broad and Lehigh to Broad and Glenwood...but also for example it takes two and a half hours to get from Doylestown to Thorndale, something almost nobody would take advantage of).

I was one of those few when I worked in Yardley and lived in Center City.

After leaving Widener University, I kept my accounts at Franklin Mint Federal Credit Union open. At the time, that credit union had only one branch in the city - in a Catholic hospital at 54th and Cedar, and it was open only during the afternoon three days a week and from 9 to 5 the other two weekdays.

Which meant that if I wanted to do business, I needed to go out to Delaware County, where all their other branches were located. It just so happened that one was in downtown Media, and another at Granite Run Mall. If I took the R3 that departed Yardley at 4 p.m., I could make it to the Granite Run branch before it closed at 6. So not only did I ride through the Commuter Tunnel, I did so without changing trains.

But I will admit that mine was an extremely rare case.

[timeEd32]

Update on the Chinatown proposals: http://philly.curbed.com/2017/3/7/14...ersus-pennrose

[cpomp]

Originally Posted by timeEd32

Update on the Chinatown proposals: http://philly.curbed.com/2017/3/7/14...ersus-pennrose

I know there are tunnels under the parcel, but there is not way you wouldn't be able to develop the entire site, the developers simply do not want to pay the millions extra for the remediation and additional site work costs because they will never get a return on the investment.


Both of these options are underwhelming at best, but I would still choose Pennrose because of the additional density.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by cpomp

I know there are tunnels under the parcel, but there is not way you wouldn't be able to develop the entire site, the developers simply do not want to pay the millions extra for the remediation and additional site work costs because they will never get a return on the investment.


Both of these options are underwhelming at best, but I would still choose Pennrose because of the additional density.

Those "site work" costs would include coming up with foundations that transferred weight off the roof of the Ridge Spur subway tunnel, which lies just beneath the surface in this block - Chinatown station has no mezzanine.

I think that would add a good bit to the cost of building anything atop that diagonal gash across the site.