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Philadelphia will never have SF or NYC rents. Maybe if we can catch up to Boston or DC then I think overall that is a good thing. Part of being a world class city is the demand to live there which equals high real estate values.
I think this is a bit of putting the cart before the horse. I think that the kind of rapid corporate gentrification of the sort that's happening in so many cities over the last 15 years or so results in this particular generic sameness that I believe if had occurred earlier would have stifled much of the culture that led to these cities becoming world class in the first place.
Yes, there were economic drivers, but the places where the defining interesting cultural things happened in NYC and SF over the past half century were the (now disappeared/disappearing) cheap rent districts.
And this thread is mainly about jockeying for corporate retail chain locations that are found in every suburban mall, and increasingly every city, in every metro. Is this what being world class means in the 21st century? If so, I think it's more of a sad thing than something to cheer on. Definitely a real case of having to be careful what you wish for.
Like, IMO having a Container Store, a Home Depot and a Lowes in Chelsea is not something that contributes to the glory or legacy of NYC. On the contrary, it's part of the ongoing suburbanization of NYC. That stuff is a recent development, and part of the unfortunate death of identity that's underway in the city. It's also quite destructive to small scale local businesses in the city. And to me it's not something to hold up as any sort of gold standard for urbanity.
Maybe it's all the inevitable physical result of a few decades of giving the reins of the national economy to corporate growth interests. But IMO all the longtime local businesses and specialty stores on lower Broadway and elsewhere that have just evaporated in the past few years, priced out and replaced by Chipotle, DWR, and other shopping mall standards, are a huge loss.
I've always said that if Philadelphia became expensive, it would probably become a lot like Boston, and that to me would be a shame. Nothing against Boston really, but I (still, for now) like Philadelphia a lot more. It's a more interesting and dynamic city to me. And I hope that it doesn't lose itself for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses.
I think this is a bit of putting the cart before the horse. I think that the kind of rapid corporate gentrification of the sort that's happening in so many cities over the last 15 years or so results in this particular generic sameness that I believe if had occurred earlier would have stifled much of the culture that led to these cities becoming world class in the first place.
Yes, there were economic drivers, but the places where the defining interesting cultural things happened in NYC and SF over the past half century were the (now disappeared/disappearing) cheap rent districts.
And this thread is mainly about jockeying for corporate retail chain locations that are found in every suburban mall, and increasingly every city, in every metro. Is this what being world class means in the 21st century? If so, I think it's more of a sad thing than something to cheer on. Definitely a real case of having to be careful what you wish for.
Like, IMO having a Container Store, a Home Depot and a Lowes in Chelsea is not something that contributes to the glory or legacy of NYC. On the contrary, it's part of the ongoing suburbanization of NYC. That stuff is a recent development, and part of the unfortunate death of identity that's underway in the city. It's also quite destructive to small scale local businesses in the city. And to me it's not something to hold up as any sort of gold standard for urbanity.
Maybe it's all the inevitable physical result of a few decades of giving the reins of the national economy to corporate growth interests. But IMO all the longtime local businesses and specialty stores on lower Broadway and elsewhere that have just evaporated in the past few years, priced out and replaced by Chipotle, DWR, and other shopping mall standards, are a huge loss.
I've always said that if Philadelphia became expensive, it would probably become a lot like Boston, and that to me would be a shame. Nothing against Boston really, but I (still, for now) like Philadelphia a lot more. It's a more interesting and dynamic city to me. And I hope that it doesn't lose itself for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses.
Something that used to annoy me no end about my ex was his tendency to make a bee line for the Polo Ralph Lauren shop in whatever city we were visiting.
We're in Kansas City, fer Chrissakes! And that's the first thing you want to see?
I'd rather find the local color. (Of course, being from there, I knew what that local color was.)
Your remark about what would happen if Philly became expensive reminds me of how I used to say that there was nothing wrong with Philadelphia that a wholesale exchange of the population with Boston's couldn't cure. There's still some truth to that statement, but I think now that the downsides of that tradeoff might just outweigh the positives.
I think this is a bit of putting the cart before the horse. I think that the kind of rapid corporate gentrification of the sort that's happening in so many cities over the last 15 years or so results in this particular generic sameness that I believe if had occurred earlier would have stifled much of the culture that led to these cities becoming world class in the first place.
Yes, there were economic drivers, but the places where the defining interesting cultural things happened in NYC and SF over the past half century were the (now disappeared/disappearing) cheap rent districts.
And this thread is mainly about jockeying for corporate retail chain locations that are found in every suburban mall, and increasingly every city, in every metro. Is this what being world class means in the 21st century? If so, I think it's more of a sad thing than something to cheer on. Definitely a real case of having to be careful what you wish for.
Like, IMO having a Container Store, a Home Depot and a Lowes in Chelsea is not something that contributes to the glory or legacy of NYC. On the contrary, it's part of the ongoing suburbanization of NYC. That stuff is a recent development, and part of the unfortunate death of identity that's underway in the city. It's also quite destructive to small scale local businesses in the city. And to me it's not something to hold up as any sort of gold standard for urbanity.
Maybe it's all the inevitable physical result of a few decades of giving the reins of the national economy to corporate growth interests. But IMO all the longtime local businesses and specialty stores on lower Broadway and elsewhere that have just evaporated in the past few years, priced out and replaced by Chipotle, DWR, and other shopping mall standards, are a huge loss.
I've always said that if Philadelphia became expensive, it would probably become a lot like Boston, and that to me would be a shame. Nothing against Boston really, but I (still, for now) like Philadelphia a lot more. It's a more interesting and dynamic city to me. And I hope that it doesn't lose itself for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses.
I know you're in real estate. Play your cards right, and you can clean up in that business. (Though as Mike Maher, the founder of Houwzer, pointed out when I interviewed him for my "Future of Real Estate Tech" article on his company, most real estate agents wash out not because they don't have what it takes to sell houses but because they can't go the length of time it often takes to cultivate leads and land that first decent commission. By putting Houwzer agents on salary, he ensures the success of all of them. FWIW, there's an agent out there who urged me to get into the game. I demurred for the reason I list above. Besides, I know I write very well and enjoy doing that.)
I'm in one of those industries that no longer guarantees an upper-middle-class salary to its best practitioners. I guess that makes me more sensitive to the issue of the disappearing middle - and uniformly "high real estate values" means they get priced out of decent, convenient places to live, and I'm sorry, but "move to the urban fringe" is not my idea of a solution to that problem.
Edited to add: A second reason I'm nowhere near as sanguine as you appear to be about such upward trends in housing costs (and don't forget, we're talking rents as well as sale prices) is because it usually means that even the more affluent end up becoming house-poor because they have to devote more than the historical standard of one-third of their income to housing. Is tossing half your annual salary down The Money Pit really a good thing? Really?
Another location for what? If you mean Legoland Discovery Center, that rumor is totally false, from what I can tell based on surfing the center websites. As I wrote, there is no metropolitan area that has more than one of these - but not only in the US, but in the 10 other cities worldwide where Merlin Entertainments Ltd. has opened one of these. From what I can tell, these indoor Lego playgrounds are supposed to be regional destinations on the order (but not the scale) of theme parks (which they are, after all), and how many cities do you know of that have more than one of those? (Before you point to Allentown, I'm going to cut you off by saying that Dorney Park is not an amusement park in that category, though Wildwater Kingdom is a first-class water park from what I've heard. But our region's theme park is Six Flags Great Adventure, which we share with New York much as we do Princeton University. )
If you were talking about something else, nevermind.
I think you meant to write "Willow Grove" where you have that second "Plymouth Meeting."
If PREIT is using outlet retail to shore up Plymouth Meeting Mall, maybe I need to pay it a visit again.
But speaking of KofP again for a moment: The same mall that's landed Bottega Veneta, Jimmy Choo, Hermès et al. also added Primark to its retail mix. Sounds to me like Simon wants to capture both the upper and the lower ends of the market as well if it can (it isn't kicking out JCPenney either).
Rumors about a Macys in SJ closing, not Lego Land.
And I meant Plymouth Meeting, there is that gigantic shopping center next to Ikea with a Target, Lowes, Giant, Old Navy, etc. And yes Willow Grove is another large mall stealing its thunder.
And regarding KoP, it is very clear that Simon is making that mall almost exclusively high to extremely high end retail, the entire new expansion does not feature one middle class store, except for Gap relocating.
The addition of Primark is only their second US location. They selected KoP due to its fashion forward and high amount of foot traffic and teenagers, almost like a test store, not to appeal to middle class shopper. And keep in mind Sears closed, and the JC Penney in KoP is nicer than most Macys I've been too, again catering to the higher end consumer at the mall. There are hardly any "low end" stores in that mall. You have H&M, Forever 21, Old Navy, etc. every mall has those because young people love them, but if you have seen Simons mission statement about KoP they want KoP to be "the luxury shopping destination of the East Coast"
I wish Simon had actually purchased the Gallery, whether people like them or not, they have a track record of drawing in the best, but they also have a track record of abandoning poor performing malls too...
I think this is a bit of putting the cart before the horse. I think that the kind of rapid corporate gentrification of the sort that's happening in so many cities over the last 15 years or so results in this particular generic sameness that I believe if had occurred earlier would have stifled much of the culture that led to these cities becoming world class in the first place.
Yes, there were economic drivers, but the places where the defining interesting cultural things happened in NYC and SF over the past half century were the (now disappeared/disappearing) cheap rent districts.
And this thread is mainly about jockeying for corporate retail chain locations that are found in every suburban mall, and increasingly every city, in every metro. Is this what being world class means in the 21st century? If so, I think it's more of a sad thing than something to cheer on. Definitely a real case of having to be careful what you wish for.
Like, IMO having a Container Store, a Home Depot and a Lowes in Chelsea is not something that contributes to the glory or legacy of NYC. On the contrary, it's part of the ongoing suburbanization of NYC. That stuff is a recent development, and part of the unfortunate death of identity that's underway in the city. It's also quite destructive to small scale local businesses in the city. And to me it's not something to hold up as any sort of gold standard for urbanity.
Maybe it's all the inevitable physical result of a few decades of giving the reins of the national economy to corporate growth interests. But IMO all the longtime local businesses and specialty stores on lower Broadway and elsewhere that have just evaporated in the past few years, priced out and replaced by Chipotle, DWR, and other shopping mall standards, are a huge loss.
I've always said that if Philadelphia became expensive, it would probably become a lot like Boston, and that to me would be a shame. Nothing against Boston really, but I (still, for now) like Philadelphia a lot more. It's a more interesting and dynamic city to me. And I hope that it doesn't lose itself for the sake of keeping up with the Joneses.
Boston is much smaller, so the amount of variety and options is already limited, and local businesses would obviously suffer when national brands arriving, but I still do not see a shortage of unique offerings there either. NYC is a monster, and from the short but (I think) extensive experience I've had exploring, national brands low/high end are peacefully co-existing with local shops and cafes.
Philadelphia is in the middle of Boston and NYC size and population wise, clearly no where near the level of national retail compared to the other 2, but the independent offerings are quite impressive. But the convenience of having everything in one city is something Philadelphia seriously lacks, (resulting in people driving to the suburbs). If NYC can do it, why can't we on a more subdued level?
The vibe I get from a lot of you guys is that you want Philadelphia to remain in a way inferior and provincial because it makes the city unique and comfortable for you. I on the other hand want the city to grow up and live up to its potential and not settle for mom and pop main street, but a more world class refined (for the most part) city.
The vibe I get from a lot of you guys is that you want Philadelphia to remain in a way inferior and provincial because it makes the city unique and comfortable for you. I on the other hand want the city to grow up and live up to its potential and not settle for mom and pop main street, but a more world class refined (for the most part) city.
No, not really at all. I would just like to remain in my neighborhood on a teacher's salary without getting priced out. Something almost impossible to do in New York or Boston. New York has become extremely unaffordable for anyone not in the six-figure range without a lot of sacrafices. Philadelphia still has a lot of what New York has, just on a smaller and far more affordable scale. New York is amazing and one-of-a-kind, but I really hope Philly doesn't become a New York Jr.
Philadelphia will never have SF or NYC rents. Maybe if we can catch up to Boston or DC then I think overall that is a good thing. Part of being a world class city is the demand to live there which equals high real estate values.
And yes, just a rumor, and possibly another location in SJ. Plymouth Meeting Mall is by no means a bad or crummy mall, its main issue is competition. Between the huge shopping centers in Plymouth Meeting and the insane amount of retail in KoP (800lb gorilla lol), that area is beyond saturated. Lego Land will definitely help that mall out, and make it unique to the area since it also has a non ghetto Dave & Busters. And I think more outlet stores would be beneficial, the new J Crew outlet was a hit, bringing in similar retail outlets would be wise IMO.
I also did not know the PM Whole Foods is the largest in the region.
Really? Then I wonder why the new CC WF is being marketed as the flagship of the MidAtlantic region. In any case the new WF is pretty great. By comparison it is way better than the one in TimeWarner Bldg in NYC.
Obviously I agree with you that rising rentals shouldn't be seen as something totally negative.
I think I can really argue that it's diminished and diminishing, and that longtime independent businesses are increasingly struggling to stay afloat, and are regularly closing with a whimper.
I can NOT argue that you can get a great coffee at Starbucks however. ;-)
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Boston is much smaller, so the amount of variety and options is already limited, and local businesses would obviously suffer when national brands arriving, but I still do not see a shortage of unique offerings there either. NYC is a monster, and from the short but (I think) extensive experience I've had exploring, national brands low/high end are peacefully co-existing with local shops and cafes.
Peacefully co-existing is not how I'd characterize the relationship. Big box stores are a very new thing in Manhattan, and the transformative impact is ongoing. I've lived here for 11 years and still feel like a neophyte, but the changes in the city over that time have been striking.
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Philadelphia is in the middle of Boston and NYC size and population wise, clearly no where near the level of national retail compared to the other 2, but the independent offerings are quite impressive. But the convenience of having everything in one city is something Philadelphia seriously lacks, (resulting in people driving to the suburbs). If NYC can do it, why can't we on a more subdued level?
I think it remains to be seen just how exactly NYC is going to do. NYC is a big ship to turn, but it is being turned. I can say with confidence that putting big box retail in Philly is not going to make it more like NYC as much as it will make it more like Anytown usa.
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The vibe I get from a lot of you guys is that you want Philadelphia to remain in a way inferior and provincial because it makes the city unique and comfortable for you. I on the other hand want the city to grow up and live up to its potential and not settle for mom and pop main street, but a more world class refined (for the most part) city.
I already asked the (only half-rhetorical) question of what makes a world class city in the 21st century above. I won't put words or opinions into anyone's mouths.
No, not really at all. I would just like to remain in my neighborhood on a teacher's salary without getting priced out. Something almost impossible to do in New York or Boston. New York has become extremely unaffordable for anyone not in the six-figure range without a lot of sacrafices. Philadelphia still has a lot of what New York has, just on a smaller and far more affordable scale. New York is amazing and one-of-a-kind, but I really hope Philly doesn't become a New York Jr.
You are painting the picture in black and white. Philadelphia is miles and miles away from NYC rents.
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