How much income to live reasonably in Center City? (Philadelphia: apartments, broker)

[rotodome]

Not that the wage tax isn't an issue for business in the city, but I think people (esp on this forum) greatly overstate the significance of the wage tax to the potential employee.
Negotiating 3% more when you're taking a new job is not THAT big of a deal, if it's actually an issue to you. And often that 3% is already "baked in" to the offered salary when you're working in the city.

[airjay75]

Originally Posted by rotodome

Not that the wage tax isn't an issue for business in the city, but I think people (esp on this forum) greatly overstate the significance of the wage tax to the potential employee.
Negotiating 3% more when you're taking a new job is not THAT big of a deal, if it's actually an issue to you. And often that 3% is already "baked in" to the offered salary when you're working in the city.

Again, it all really depends on your situation. Some employers will negotiate salary, others won't. Depends on the employer and the industry. If your job location is actually in Philly city limits, the difference between the resident rate and non-resident rate is pretty small. However, if your job is located outside of city limits, and even if you are able to negotiate a 3% raise in your pay to cover your wage tax, there is no denying the fact that you will get another 3% raise simply by choosing to live outside city limits. Might not be worth it to everyone, but to some, it will be.

[Mimidae]

I say to the OP: your income is more than sufficient. If living in the city is what your heart desires, do it. You're not yet fettered down by a spouse whose job or personal preferences make it hard to live in the city. Or kids. It's something to do while you're young, for sure. So I say kudos on landing a well paying job right out of school, and if it feels right, live in the city. Don't worry about saving a couple of thousand on taxes, etc. Just make sure you're socking some savings away, and enjoy the hell out of it. You don't know that you'll have the freedom to live in the city in 10 years.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by airjay75

Pretty broad generalization - not sure what you base that on. I've lived in both urban and suburban areas, and known plenty of out-of-college twenty-somethings living in both types of places, and I certainly have never gotten the impression that most of those in the suburbs were living there out of necessity. Again, I just think it depends on the person.

I base that on the fact that in the comparison to the city, very few suburbs offer amenities and frills that appeal to single people in their twenties. When they live outside the core of a major metropolitan area it's usually for work or budgetary reasons. I'm not saying no one under 30 wants to live in the burns, but they're definitely among the minority.

Originally Posted by airjay75

OP seems to be most interested in the city, and I think that's great, but it doesn't hurt to have full knowledge about the cost differential that exists between Philadelphia and its suburban counties. On top of that, many suburbs of Philadelphia (such as Ardmore) are not exactly what I would characterize as traditional suburbs without appeal to young, single people. Plenty of walkable shops, restaurants, bars, coffee shops, etc. all while being a short train ride from what's going on in center city. In fact, I would say Ardmore is the type of suburb that many young families move out of as they have kids simply so they can have a more traditional, sprawling type of suburb.

I grew up five minutes from Ardmore and agree it's a great place loaded with charm and character. It's also highly family-oriented and there isn't much of a young person's scene, aside from spillover from the local colleges and universities. The bolded is also not really true. When families go to the Main Line, it's usually to stay.

[RightonWalnut]

The general rule of thumb is you do not want to spend more than 28% of your income on housing costs. That leaves you $1400 a month for rent, which is CERTAINLY doable in Center City... even in some new construction highrises, they are only asking $1200 a month for a one bedroom.

[airjay75]

Originally Posted by HeavenWood

I base that on the fact that in the comparison to the city, very few suburbs offer amenities and frills that appeal to single people in their twenties. When they live outside the core of a major metropolitan area it's usually for work or budgetary reasons. I'm not saying no one under 30 wants to live in the burns, but they're definitely among the minority.

I grew up five minutes from Ardmore and agree it's a great place loaded with charm and character. It's also highly family-oriented and there isn't much of a young person's scene, aside from spillover from the local colleges and universities. The bolded is also not really true. When families go to the Main Line, it's usually to stay.

Sounds like you're basing your conclusions on your personal experiences. I think that's great, but, respectfully, my personal experiences differ.

Having recently spent most of my 20s in the Philadelphia area, both in the suburbs and the city, attending graduate school in Philadelphia for 3 years while living in the suburbs, working in the city for 5 years (living in the city for 2 of those years and on the Main Line about 10 minutes from Ardmore in Bryn Mawr for 3 of those years), my experience was simply much different. Yes, there are plenty of people in their 20s, both single and married, who preferred and loved the city, but I knew plenty of people, both single and married, who preferred various suburban locations.

Amenities and frills? It really depends what you're looking for. Aside from museums, the symphony, and the occasional theatre production, there isn't much in center city that you can't also find in one of Philadelphia's suburbs, albeit to a lesser degree - you will not find quite the density of bars and nice restaurants in the suburbs that you will find in center city, but its not like such places are non-existent in the suburbs. Of course, living in center city provides a different type of lifestyle than the suburbs - much more pedestrian based. For some young people, that type of lifestyle is very attractive. For others, particularly those that are used to living a very auto-focused life that exists in large parts of this country, it may not be exactly what suits them. For them, they might prefer a close suburb with easy access to the city, but which is a little more auto-friendly.

Ardmore and the Main Line? Well, yes, there are many families who come to the Main Line to stay. However, I don't think it is at all uncommon for say a young couple to start out renting/owning in Ardmore, and to then move further out to have more space at lower prices. The closer you are to Philadelphia along the Main Line, the older, smaller, and more expensive the housing stock tends to be. There are undoubtedly exceptions to this, but the further out you go along the Main Line, the further you will generally be able to stretch your housing dollars.

[frankgn87]

Originally Posted by rotodome

Not that the wage tax isn't an issue for business in the city, but I think people (esp on this forum) greatly overstate the significance of the wage tax to the potential employee.
Negotiating 3% more when you're taking a new job is not THAT big of a deal, if it's actually an issue to you. And often that 3% is already "baked in" to the offered salary when you're working in the city.

When you are making $200k between you and your spouse, its a heck of a big deal

[FindingZen]

Originally Posted by frankgn87

When you are making $200k between you and your spouse, its a heck of a big deal

It probably is...then again, there are empty nesters - and occasionally families - that earn that income and yet choose to live in the city.

But this topic is more single younger professionals who would prefer to enjoy the urban vitality that Center City offers. Fortunately for the OP, s/he will have more than enough income to do so.

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by frankgn87

When you are making $200k between you and your spouse, its a heck of a big deal

I don't see how you're contradicting anything I said up there, but you certainly provided an example of at least one thing I mentioned up there.

It only makes a big difference if you already have a job outside the city and are planning to move either into or out of the city. In that case, yes, things would change for you.

If you have a job in the city, you are paying the city wage tax regardless of where you live.

If you are getting a new job, you presumably would be negotiating your salary, and/or taking a job that has a salary offering based on it being located inside or outside the city.

And if you are at a relatively high pay rate, then you are likely at an experience and/or specialization level at which you should be able to negotiate a couple of percentage points if that's the dealbreaker for you.

[BPP1999]

Originally Posted by rotodome

I don't see how you're contradicting anything I said up there, but you certainly provided an example of at least one thing I mentioned up there.

It only makes a big difference if you already have a job outside the city and are planning to move either into or out of the city. In that case, yes, things would change for you.

If you have a job in the city, you are paying the city wage tax regardless of where you live.

If you are getting a new job, you presumably would be negotiating your salary, and/or taking a job that has a salary offering based on it being located inside or outside the city.

And if you are at a relatively high pay rate, then you are likely at an experience and/or specialization level at which you should be able to negotiate a couple of percentage points if that's the dealbreaker for you.

Right, and Frank, if you are making $200k between the both of you at your jobs in PA, it doesn't make sense to live in NJ from an income tax standpoint, because your NJ state income tax would be $8,698 while your PA tax would be $6,000. The point is that there are more factors to consider than income taxes. There's property taxes to consider, as well as what your heart wants. If you want to live in the city you should do so. Not everyone wants to live in any city, including Philadelphia, and there's nothing wrong with that.

If the OP wants to live in the city, then he should do it, especially now while he's young. He'll either find out he wants to live in an urban environment for life, or he'll want to move to the burbs. He has plenty of income to live in Center City. I lived in Center City relatively easily 12 years ago just out of college while making $40k. I did not have my car in the city so that's one big expense I didn't have to deal with but for $60k he will be fine. Just don't expect to live in a condo facing Rittenhouse Square.