U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-07-2013, 05:32 PM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by strawberryanise View Post
That also works if one can find similar employment at a comparable salary. I know that if I were to take a similar job at a similar employer in this area, that'd mean a pay cut. It would offset the lower cost of living.

Don't more people in Philly have cars?
If you want to live in somewhere comparable to Manhattan then it might but otherwise it won't. Depending on your commute, you can find apartments in many fringe places for much, much less than in Manhattan. Places in and outside of the city that are either along rail lines or where you can easily drive a half hour or less to get to Center City. At the end of the day, you have to just crunch the numbers really and figure out how much less the cost of living would be. Oh, and the wage tax is I believe 3.924% for residents and 3.495% for non-residents, and it should be lowering again in the near future.

It definitely depends on what your profession is, too. Philadelphia definitely has more of some professions than others, so obviously not every profession in New York can be continued in Philadelphia.

As for having more cars, probably but not a whole lot in the urban core. People in this area take public transportation quite a bit.

Last edited by s1oozne; 08-07-2013 at 05:43 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-07-2013, 08:19 PM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,260 posts, read 4,877,400 times
Reputation: 2051
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1oozne View Post
It's also cheaper because it's a place where you can work a normal job and not have to live in some shoebox, even in decent neighborhoods. Think of how big Manhattan is compared to Philadelphia, and how much more accessible many parts of Philadelphia that fall within roughly the same area are when compared with how expensive Manhattan is.
Why do people always like to equate NY with Manhattan? Manhattan's about the same size as Philly in population (although in land area it is much smaller). And only 18% of NYC's population lives there. But yes, it is very expensive.

Last edited by rotodome; 08-07-2013 at 08:43 PM.. Reason: changed because my manhattan/philly population numbers were a couple of years out of date
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-07-2013, 11:56 PM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotodome View Post
Why do people always like to equate NY with Manhattan? Manhattan's about the same size as Philly in population (although in land area it is much smaller). And only 18% of NYC's population lives there. But yes, it is very expensive.
Because Manhattan is much larger than Center City. If you dropped Manhattan on the city, it would take up a good chunk of South Philly and North Philly as well, plus the riverwards and maybe even part of the Northeast. It's only got such a small area in square miles because of how narrow it is. Within just that area alone, there are plenty of places for a hell of a lot more cheap than Manhattan.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2013, 01:42 AM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,260 posts, read 4,877,400 times
Reputation: 2051
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1oozne View Post
Because Manhattan is much larger than Center City. If you dropped Manhattan on the city, it would take up a good chunk of South Philly and North Philly as well, plus the riverwards and maybe even part of the Northeast. It's only got such a small area in square miles because of how narrow it is. Within just that area alone, there are plenty of places for a hell of a lot more cheap than Manhattan.
OK... But I mean, NYC is a much larger city than Philadelphia, and it has a totally different economy. And Center City proper is really quite small, it only has like 90,000 people. So not really sure what the point was. Are you saying that living in the lower Northeast or the riverwards is something like living in Manhattan? Because I don't even think that living in Center City is much like it (and this is neither a positive nor a negative statement).
If it's just about finding cheaper real estate, you can find a cheaper place to live than Manhattan almost anywhere you can think of (including most other parts of NYC).

The original point was just that the cost of living being lower is relative, and is really only meaningful if someone is getting the same salary in both places, and is doing a similar job. And so that's why it isn't all that meaningful to a lot of people.
I can relate to this because I've personally been trying to move back to Philly for years now, but it's been very hard to find a way to do it that makes any sense career-wise.

Last edited by rotodome; 08-08-2013 at 02:28 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2013, 02:54 AM
 
10,344 posts, read 10,824,961 times
Reputation: 5571
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotodome View Post
Why do people always like to equate NY with Manhattan? Manhattan's about the same size as Philly in population (although in land area it is much smaller). And only 18% of NYC's population lives there. But yes, it is very expensive.
To the extent that raw density numbers are revealing, Philadelphia is closer to Staten Island than any other borough of New York City.

People per Acre
110 Manhattan
57 Brooklyn
51 Bronx
33 Queens
13 Staten Island

18 Philadelphia


To some extent Philadelphia has to be attractive to some New Yorkers. Center City has some urban excitement, and it is a short train ride to Manhattan. An Acela Express can cover the distance in 75 minutes (90 mile). There are many people in the NY metro area that commute 75 minutes or more each day.

Many poorer New Yorkers are moving to Eastern PA looking for vastly cheaper housing.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2013, 04:05 AM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by PacoMartin View Post
To the extent that raw density numbers are revealing, Philadelphia is closer to Staten Island than any other borough of New York City.

People per Acre
110 Manhattan
57 Brooklyn
51 Bronx
33 Queens
13 Staten Island

18 Philadelphia


To some extent Philadelphia has to be attractive to some New Yorkers. Center City has some urban excitement, and it is a short train ride to Manhattan. An Acela Express can cover the distance in 75 minutes (90 mile). There are many people in the NY metro area that commute 75 minutes or more each day.

Many poorer New Yorkers are moving to Eastern PA looking for vastly cheaper housing.
Considering the fact that Philadelphia is larger in area than every individual borough of New York, you're making a ridiculous comparison. Also, Queens and Staten Island currently have more population than they ever have, and the Bronx, Brooklyn, and Manhattan are all close to their previous peak populations. Comparing them individually to a city that's larger in area and has parts that are so depopulated that they've been referred to as "semi-rural" is beyond ridiculous.

Center City has over 20,000 people per square mile, and is nowhere near being filled in yet. It probably has even more people than that at this point.

You really need to stop downgrading and dismissing Philadelphia.

Last edited by s1oozne; 08-08-2013 at 04:50 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2013, 04:49 AM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotodome View Post
OK... But I mean, NYC is a much larger city than Philadelphia, and it has a totally different economy. And Center City proper is really quite small, it only has like 60,000 people (and before anyone says it - yes, there's 175,000 in the "expanded core"). So not really sure what the point was. Are you saying that living in the lower Northeast or the riverwards is something like living in Manhattan? Because I don't even think that living in Center City is much like it (and this is neither a positive nor a negative statement).
If it's just about finding cheaper real estate, you can find a cheaper place to live than Manhattan almost anywhere you can think of (including most other parts of NYC).

The original point was just that the cost of living being lower is relative, and is really only meaningful if someone is getting the same salary in both places, and is doing a similar job. And so that's why it isn't all that meaningful to a lot of people.
I can relate to this because I've personally been trying to move back to Philly for years now, but it's been very hard to find a way to do it that makes any sense career-wise.
I'm well aware of that. No other city in the country is like New York. No other city has mini-cities like New York does in Long Island City and the downtown part of Brooklyn, let alone independent boroughs that are physically removed from the central business district and center of the city, especially not boroughs that individually have more population than almost every city in the country. I'm saying that unlike Manhattan, there are parts within the same area (as in the form of measurement, not as in "the same area as each other") that are much cheaper than anywhere in Manhattan and even anywhere near Midtown or Lower Manhattan, including the parts of Brooklyn and Queens closest to it. Also, Philadelphia has aspects to it that New York doesn't, like the Schuylkill River and University City, which is more like what Cambridge, Mass is to Boston than it is like any part of New York. Personally, I view Philadelphia as having aspects of New York, of Boston, of Chicago, and of other cities rather than just being like one or the other.

I agree with you, that really nowhere is like living in Manhattan except maybe cities outside of the US, but the point is that the lower cost of living doesn't automatically get offset because people live pretty damn far out in Manhattan and yet still pay a lot more money, when they can live in plenty of places that are within the same amount of area yet are dirt cheap in comparison. Not everybody in New York makes a ton of money. Outside of the very high paying jobs, there's no way the drop-off in salary is so severe that if automatically offsets the lower cost of living. It depends on your job and on the lifestyle you want to live. Maybe for you the salary drop offsets the lower cost of living but not for everybody.

Oh, and your numbers are from 2010. Also, the "expanded core" actually had 180,000 people in 7.8 square miles in 2010 according to CenterCityDistrict. I'm not saying there's been a huge boom but considering all of the residential that's been built since then, I'd say there's a good chance that there's more than 60,000 people in Center City proper at this point. Considering how far the population fell in Center City, and how much more full of apartments and condos pretty much every single part of Manhattan is, 60,000+ people in less than 3 square miles is nothing to sneeze at. Give it time before you start trying to compare a downtown that is the geographical size of maybe a neighborhood in Manhattan that isn't anywhere near built out to a place like Manhattan.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2013, 07:01 AM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,260 posts, read 4,877,400 times
Reputation: 2051
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1oozne View Post
I'm well aware of that. No other city in the country is like New York. No other city has mini-cities like New York does in Long Island City and the downtown part of Brooklyn, let alone independent boroughs that are physically removed from the central business district and center of the city, especially not boroughs that individually have more population than almost every city in the country. I'm saying that unlike Manhattan, there are parts within the same area (as in the form of measurement, not as in "the same area as each other") that are much cheaper than anywhere in Manhattan and even anywhere near Midtown or Lower Manhattan, including the parts of Brooklyn and Queens closest to it. Also, Philadelphia has aspects to it that New York doesn't, like the Schuylkill River and University City, which is more like what Cambridge, Mass is to Boston than it is like any part of New York. Personally, I view Philadelphia as having aspects of New York, of Boston, of Chicago, and of other cities rather than just being like one or the other.

I agree with you, that really nowhere is like living in Manhattan except maybe cities outside of the US, but the point is that the lower cost of living doesn't automatically get offset because people live pretty damn far out in Manhattan and yet still pay a lot more money, when they can live in plenty of places that are within the same amount of area yet are dirt cheap in comparison. Not everybody in New York makes a ton of money. Outside of the very high paying jobs, there's no way the drop-off in salary is so severe that if automatically offsets the lower cost of living. It depends on your job and on the lifestyle you want to live. Maybe for you the salary drop offsets the lower cost of living but not for everybody.

Oh, and your numbers are from 2010. Also, the "expanded core" actually had 180,000 people in 7.8 square miles in 2010 according to CenterCityDistrict. I'm not saying there's been a huge boom but considering all of the residential that's been built since then, I'd say there's a good chance that there's more than 60,000 people in Center City proper at this point. Considering how far the population fell in Center City, and how much more full of apartments and condos pretty much every single part of Manhattan is, 60,000+ people in less than 3 square miles is nothing to sneeze at. Give it time before you start trying to compare a downtown that is the geographical size of maybe a neighborhood in Manhattan that isn't anywhere near built out to a place like Manhattan.
Yes, I actually corrected my numbers a couple of hours before you made this post.

But anyway, you are the one who brought up "Manhattan", and the notion of superimposing it over Philly in the first place for whatever reason, I guess saying that outlying neighborhoods in Philly were somehow like a cheaper alternative to it. That was the instance of "trying to compare" that confused people.
And you did that in response to my post which was just saying that the cost of living being lower depends on if you could get a similar job for similar pay, which everyone cannot do. And since that's what you are reaffirming now, I think we've come full circle, since clearly we are in agreement on that.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2013, 09:52 AM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by rotodome View Post
Yes, I actually corrected my numbers a couple of hours before you made this post.

But anyway, you are the one who brought up "Manhattan", and the notion of superimposing it over Philly in the first place for whatever reason, I guess saying that outlying neighborhoods in Philly were somehow like a cheaper alternative to it. That was the instance of "trying to compare" that confused people.
And you did that in response to my post which was just saying that the cost of living being lower depends on if you could get a similar job for similar pay, which everyone cannot do. And since that's what you are reaffirming now, I think we've come full circle, since clearly we are in agreement on that.
I brought it up to show that somebody could live as close to a job in Center City distance-wise as they did to their old job in New York, and live for much, much cheaper. I always see comparisons between Center City and Manhattan but that's not really an accurate way to compare Philadelphia and New York given how much larger Manhattan is. So no, that's not why I was saying it, you just seemed to take it that way. Anybody who says that Center City is a cheaper version of Manhattan is being generous. Philadelphia is its own city with its own thing going on. It doesn't have all of what Manhattan, let alone New York does but it has things all its own. It depends on personal preference.

I didn't reaffirm that though, because it isn't the case. The idea that you need to be making the exact same amount of money as you did in New York for the cost of living to not be offset by a lower salary is absurd. Think for a second about just how expensive it is to live in New York, something you know from personal experience. What I said was it depends on your profession and what lifestyle you want to live. You can live in a relatively safe neighborhood within the same distance to Center City as many people live from their work in Manhattan, for much cheaper. That's not saying that you can live the "same exact lifestyle in the same exact type of place" for cheaper. I wasn't comparing Philadelphia and Manhattan. I was comparing Philadelphia and New York. I started that off by showing how big Manhattan is in comparison to Center City, so that people would understand that to get Brookyln, Queens, the Bronx, etc, you'd have to go pretty damn far into other parts of Philadelphia and even into its suburbs, most of which are also connected to Center City by rail. The wage tax is a problem I will admit, but the much cheaper residential options should more than make up for that. Unless you're some very highly paid professional, there is no way the drop off in salary should be that severe. People in professional jobs that are more ordinary shouldn't see such a severe drop in their salary. You can't tell me that somebody making $50,000 or more a year won't be able to live pretty comfortably in Philadelphia. Now if it's a family, well obviously other things get taken into consideration but you also have possibly two salaries, which should help.

Personally, I would never want to live in Manhattan. I would much rather live in Center City because it's vibrant and has a lot to do but it doesn't jump out at you all the time like Manhattan does. I'm glad Center City isn't Manhattan.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree about this.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-08-2013, 11:45 AM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,260 posts, read 4,877,400 times
Reputation: 2051
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1oozne View Post
I brought it up to show that somebody could live as close to a job in Center City distance-wise as they did to their old job in New York, and live for much, much cheaper. I always see comparisons between Center City and Manhattan but that's not really an accurate way to compare Philadelphia and New York given how much larger Manhattan is. So no, that's not why I was saying it, you just seemed to take it that way. Anybody who says that Center City is a cheaper version of Manhattan is being generous. Philadelphia is its own city with its own thing going on. It doesn't have all of what Manhattan, let alone New York does but it has things all its own. It depends on personal preference.

I didn't reaffirm that though, because it isn't the case. The idea that you need to be making the exact same amount of money as you did in New York for the cost of living to not be offset by a lower salary is absurd. Think for a second about just how expensive it is to live in New York, something you know from personal experience. What I said was it depends on your profession and what lifestyle you want to live. You can live in a relatively safe neighborhood within the same distance to Center City as many people live from their work in Manhattan, for much cheaper. That's not saying that you can live the "same exact lifestyle in the same exact type of place" for cheaper. I wasn't comparing Philadelphia and Manhattan. I was comparing Philadelphia and New York. I started that off by showing how big Manhattan is in comparison to Center City, so that people would understand that to get Brookyln, Queens, the Bronx, etc, you'd have to go pretty damn far into other parts of Philadelphia and even into its suburbs, most of which are also connected to Center City by rail. The wage tax is a problem I will admit, but the much cheaper residential options should more than make up for that. Unless you're some very highly paid professional, there is no way the drop off in salary should be that severe. People in professional jobs that are more ordinary shouldn't see such a severe drop in their salary. You can't tell me that somebody making $50,000 or more a year won't be able to live pretty comfortably in Philadelphia. Now if it's a family, well obviously other things get taken into consideration but you also have possibly two salaries, which should help.

Personally, I would never want to live in Manhattan. I would much rather live in Center City because it's vibrant and has a lot to do but it doesn't jump out at you all the time like Manhattan does. I'm glad Center City isn't Manhattan.

I'm fine with agreeing to disagree about this.
You know, I did actually "think about" what I said from my own experience living in both cities for many years - but thanks for giving me the non-benefit of the doubt.

I'm not sure what we're agreeing to disagree about. You so far have not actually contradicted anything that I said, and no one aside from you has said anything about their personal preferences.

Other people seemed to understand what I said, so that will have to do.
The topic of NY transplants moving to Philly is a little bit interesting. But yet another "Philly vs NY" thread is definitely not.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top