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Old 08-14-2013, 06:24 PM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,260 posts, read 4,877,400 times
Reputation: 2051

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Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus215 View Post
I understand that not every teacher makes the high end of the pay scale, but it's yet another example of the disconnect between public school systems and the real world.
No sure I follow this. Are you saying that there are a lot of educated professional careers in this real world where the absolute TOP of the pay scale is 87-100K? Really? Can you give some examples? Because that doesn't seem all that common to me.
There are a lot of people in the school system that are making good money, no doubt about that, but it's not the teachers. I certainly don't know any teachers who are living luxurious lifestyles. I know lots of other professionals who are.

Quote:
The overwhelming problem, however, is pensions. This is a situation that should have been corrected long ago, at the same time that the private sector overwhelmingly turned to defined-contribution 401k plans (with a very limited employer match). Yet, it STILL hasn't been corrected in the public school system . . . not even for newly-hired teachers. That's something that could and should be done immediately, but the teachers unions will fight it every inch of the way. The influence of unions in politics, while much less than it once was, is still significant. Politicians are afraid to do anything about the problem. As often happens in these types of situations, the unions are contributing to the demise of those who fund their existence. As the funding gap intensifies, more and more teachers will lose their jobs and class sizes will explode.
I definitely agree that funding pensions in their current form is a problem that requires addressing. But let's not ignore healthcare, which makes up a huge chunk of the rising costs. And it's not as if pensions have never been viable.
But again, I think it seems like a very forced argument to lay all of the blame at the feet of teachers. Are they the only ones with unsustainable pension or healthcare benefits? Or is there also a disproportionately growing proportion of administrators, who have a higher pay scale than teachers, which are exacerbating these problems (along with a large host of other issues, of course). I'm just not sure why so many people are so quick to categorically throw teachers under the bus.

Last edited by rotodome; 08-14-2013 at 06:36 PM..
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Old 08-14-2013, 06:30 PM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,260 posts, read 4,877,400 times
Reputation: 2051
Quote:
Originally Posted by frankgn87 View Post
That was 2010. 2013 is higher. $100k is about right....

Oh and this guy told ya's a while back the Philly school district is in dire straights.. Remember??
I posted a link to the current SDP website. Pretty strange if it's out of date.
But even if $100K was "about right", that's still the absolute top of the pay scale. Not what the average or even the median teacher makes. Not sure why that changes the point.

And I think (or hope) that everyone has been fully aware for a long time that the SDP was in trouble (And that it's far from the only district in PA that's in trouble).

Last edited by rotodome; 08-14-2013 at 06:38 PM..
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Old 08-14-2013, 07:34 PM
 
8,048 posts, read 18,469,927 times
Reputation: 2738
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus215 View Post
Teachers unions and their Democratic lackies have destroyed the public education system in this country . . . and it's only going to get worse. But as long as teachers get paid $100k to work 9 months a year, pay none of their healthcare costs, and received a defined-benefit pension for 30 years after they stop working, who cares?
I can respect your feelings about unions and Democrats. However, only classroom educators that manage to make it to 30 years in the same school system can even hope to approach a six-figure salary after working (actually closer to) ten months a year. There's a retired Philly educator in my family and they certainly never topped $100K, not even close.
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Old 08-14-2013, 07:50 PM
 
Location: Philly
156 posts, read 393,550 times
Reputation: 134
Not generally a fan of unions, and I find teacher's unions to be particularly unlikable. That being said, if $87,000 a year is what the best paid classroom teacher in the district is making, that seems pretty reasonable. Of course, I'd prefer if this salary was tied to results, but I digress.

I'm really confused about the financing of this city though. We pay a 3.9% wage tax, non-residents pay something like 3.4%, a 2% sales tax and a 10% sales tax on liquor, among some others. I don't know what the property tax burden is as a renter, but from what I understand Philly's taxes are actually on the high side. So how is it that we can't afford to keep schools open? Is it really just that Philly's tax base is so awful? I find that really hard to believe, since non-resident wage earners are paying more to Philly than they are to the state.

I ask this out of genuine curiosity since, despite my frequent Philly rants, I see some pretty taxable people and things around here.

As for Corbett's decision, I say good for him. Taxpayers in Erie and Harrisburg and Altoona should not be bailing out the state's biggest city. It just doesn't make sense.
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Old 08-14-2013, 08:05 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
7,780 posts, read 18,921,816 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by rotodome View Post
I posted a link to the current SDP website. Pretty strange if it's out of date.
But even if $100K was "about right", that's still the absolute top of the pay scale. Not what the average or even the median teacher makes. Not sure why that changes the point.

And I think (or hope) that everyone has been fully aware for a long time that the SDP was in trouble (And that it's far from the only district in PA that's in trouble).

Yup. 9/1/2010. way out of date
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Old 08-14-2013, 08:15 PM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,260 posts, read 4,877,400 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankgn87 View Post
Yup. 9/1/2010. way out of date
Or it's still current, and indicates that they haven't gotten raises in three years.
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Old 08-14-2013, 08:39 PM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,260 posts, read 4,877,400 times
Reputation: 2051
Quote:
Originally Posted by SJCPHL View Post
Not generally a fan of unions, and I find teacher's unions to be particularly unlikable. That being said, if $87,000 a year is what the best paid classroom teacher in the district is making, that seems pretty reasonable. Of course, I'd prefer if this salary was tied to results, but I digress.

I'm really confused about the financing of this city though. We pay a 3.9% wage tax, non-residents pay something like 3.4%, a 2% sales tax and a 10% sales tax on liquor, among some others. I don't know what the property tax burden is as a renter, but from what I understand Philly's taxes are actually on the high side. So how is it that we can't afford to keep schools open? Is it really just that Philly's tax base is so awful? I find that really hard to believe, since non-resident wage earners are paying more to Philly than they are to the state.

I ask this out of genuine curiosity since, despite my frequent Philly rants, I see some pretty taxable people and things around here.

As for Corbett's decision, I say good for him. Taxpayers in Erie and Harrisburg and Altoona should not be bailing out the state's biggest city. It just doesn't make sense.
Someone asked a similar question earlier in the thread.
It was then noted that even many affuent suburban districts are having fiscal difficulties right now. This recent article was posted as a reference: The School Tax Vise - Philly.com
I agree with you that bailouts can't fix the problems, but I'd also find it very difficult to praise Governor Corbett in a thread about public education in Pennsylvania.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:14 AM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Padugan View Post
um, no it isn't. Actually, it's the complete opposite. You're 100% incorrect. I don't have a problem with someone expressing an intelligent and somewhat factual opinion. But to make stuff up without anything to support it is a waste of time. It's clear from your posts on this thread and others that you love everything that makes this city a dump. Not only that, you celebrate it. Sorry, I have no tolerance for that line of thinking. And I will point it out every chance I get.

The suburbs of Philadelphia not only have some of the best schools in the state, but in the country.
Um, actually, YOU are wrong, and it's because of people like you and your wrong ideas and the fact that you can't accept the reality that the suburbs have gotten a free lunch at the expense of older urban areas that we CONTINUOUSLY end up in this situation. We all have to deal with your delusions constantly, and the fact that if the fragile bubble you all live in is the least bit threatened, you lash out.

In their delusional minds. Some of them do, but the majority don't. See, the thing you all don't seem to get is that money doesn't make a school district good and it never will. Tell me, how many of you suburban kids can't even spell or use correct grammar, talk like a typical street kid (even though they come from a cushy background), and just completely waste the GIFT of an education you're given? Why are you worth the money that gets thrown at you?

As for the rest... just wow. Get a clue, kid. Really. How dare you insult me after acting catty then try to act like you're the better man here. It's amazing that somebody like you is allowed to run his mouth like that without so much as a warning but hey we all know how much this site loves the suburbs. As for what I love, well you don't know a damn thing about what I love and you don't know a damn thing about me so don't you dare make your little assumptions and accusations like a typical "look down your nose at others" suburban kid.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:15 AM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus215 View Post
Teachers unions and their Democratic lackies have destroyed the public education system in this country . . . and it's only going to get worse. But as long as teachers get paid $100k to work 9 months a year, pay none of their healthcare costs, and received a defined-benefit pension for 30 years after they stop working, who cares?
Wrong.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus215 View Post
Even at $87k, that is equivalent to $116k based on a 9 month school year. Add to that the value of healthcare benefits and pension for life, and some of these teachers are effectively making $150k - $200k per year. I know that teaching is important, but there are way more qualified teachers than there are available positons, so the supply and demand is completely out of balance.

In my district, teachers make up to $108k, which is ridiculous. The salary itself isn't as much the problem as the value of the benefits they receive. This is not sustainable and the bubble is about to burst. We're seeing it happen first in districts like Philadelphia that are poorer and more poorly managed, but it's going to hit every single district very soon.
Right, because it has absolutely nothing to do with the fact that the state has been funding the schools less and less since 1970.
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Old 08-15-2013, 03:19 AM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by Angus215 View Post
I understand that not every teacher makes the high end of the pay scale, but it's yet another example of the disconnect between public school systems and the real world. The overwhelming problem, however, is pensions. This is a situation that should have been corrected long ago, at the same time that the private sector overwhelmingly turned to defined-contribution 401k plans (with a very limited employer match). Yet, it STILL hasn't been corrected in the public school system . . . not even for newly-hired teachers. That's something that could and should be done immediately, but the teachers unions will fight it every inch of the way. The influence of unions in politics, while much less than it once was, is still significant. Politicians are afraid to do anything about the problem. As often happens in these types of situations, the unions are contributing to the demise of those who fund their existence. As the funding gap intensifies, more and more teachers will lose their jobs and class sizes will explode.
And what about the disconnect between sheltered suburbanites, politicians, and the real world? Seriously, this real world you all love to talk about doesn't seem to somewhere you spend much time in. How many of the people constantly trying to tell Philadelphia how to be "fiscally responsible" have the least bit of a clue about how to do that? How many have even had to at any point in their life? How many have had to deal with any of the problems the district has had to, like not having enough money for basic needs, having to deal with safety issues the suburbs couldn't even imagine? Any of them? A single one?
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