U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 08-11-2013, 08:56 AM
 
5,292 posts, read 5,843,522 times
Reputation: 1132

Advertisements

"It is definitely a shame that every white ethnic group from that time has become "white" and completely lost who they are and what they come from in large numbers, but they wanted to get out of their neighborhoods and the only way they would ever have a chance of not facing discrimination from those who were already in the suburbs was to assimilate and Americanize. This is the case with the Irish and other pale-skinned groups much moreso than the Italians though, because you can almost always pick an Italian-American out from a crowd.."

*Interesting comment, but I don't think assimilation was a good thing per se imho. People can loose, or give up their cultural heritage for something they think is better for them and their families, but may be quite the opposite. As an African American male (and proud of it), I've come to understand and respect many facets and attributes of Italian, Irish and Jewish Americans. Understanding the plight and struggle of these people. It's just a damn shame what has, and continue to happen, to said communities.









Quote:
Originally Posted by s1oozne View Post
Exactly what I was going to post, but I'll add on that plenty of them went back to Italy as well.

It's easy for people to judge these white ethnic groups for moving to the suburbs (not saying that you in particular are) but they lived in cramped, dirty, industrial, working class neighborhoods that were basically de-facto ghettos and honestly if it weren't for opportunities due to things like the GI Bill probably would still be living there to this day. It might have been better for the city's stability but it wouldn't have been better for them. Most of the kids in the suburbs are in the position they're in because their parents or grandparents or great grandparents moved out of those neighborhoods into the brand-spanking new suburbs, many of them because they went out and did courageous things overseas that many of us couldn't even fathom.

It is definitely a shame that every white ethnic group from that time has become "white" and completely lost who they are and what they come from in large numbers, but they wanted to get out of their neighborhoods and the only way they would ever have a chance of not facing discrimination from those who were already in the suburbs was to assimilate and Americanize. This is the case with the Irish and other pale-skinned groups much moreso than the Italians though, because you can almost always pick an Italian-American out from a crowd.

Obviously there's the whole racism/white flight aspect but it's much more complex than that and started happening well before that white flight/race tensions era even began.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 08-11-2013, 09:10 AM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40
I agree completely with you. I just wanted to offer some perspective because it is rarely present when talking about these specific groups.

Probably the worst thing about assimilation and losing heritage is that those groups (one of which I am a part of) are so tied to their neighborhoods and not their heritage, so when gentrification comes and their neighborhood is basically taken away from them all over again, their heritage is as well.

Italian-Americans have a lot more in common with Russians, Greeks, Polish, Germans, French, etc than they do with the Irish or the Jewish because most of them were from the lower classes and specifically from Southern Italy, and a lot of them were fleeing because of Mussolini. Their country has changed a lot from when those waves of immigrants were coming over, and unless there's another Mussolini type then there won't be another wave of them coming over ever again, and if they did then you probably wouldn't recognize them when compared with generational Italian-Americans. The Eurozone crisis is definitely causing groups to emigrate from Europe again but I think you'll find that they are nothing like the people who emigrated centuries or even decades before. We live in a different world now.

The Irish on the other hand had their entire country taken away from them and their land stolen from them and were even sold into slavery (along with "common" English and Scottish as well), and have had war in the northern part of their country for decades now. They're still subject to the same discimination and terrorism by Loyalists (specifically the Orange Order), and their condition has improved but only to the point of people living in frequently war-torn parts of Eastern Europe. That's why illegal Irish people have come over in such numbers over the past few decades especially, because their homeland was not safe for them and they wanted a better life for their children. Despite all of the happy-happy, touchy-feely pieces written about Northern Ireland, the only thing stopping them from going to war again is the cool-headedness of the Catholics in Northern Ireland, and the fact that there's no strong IRA right now to continue the fight or if there is then they haven't put their plans into action yet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2013, 10:11 AM
 
5,292 posts, read 5,843,522 times
Reputation: 1132
Thank You! You're providing history that wasn't taught to us in school. It makes a difference!!






Quote:
Originally Posted by s1oozne View Post
I agree completely with you. I just wanted to offer some perspective because it is rarely present when talking about these specific groups.

Probably the worst thing about assimilation and losing heritage is that those groups (one of which I am a part of) are so tied to their neighborhoods and not their heritage, so when gentrification comes and their neighborhood is basically taken away from them all over again, their heritage is as well.

Italian-Americans have a lot more in common with Russians, Greeks, Polish, Germans, French, etc than they do with the Irish or the Jewish because most of them were from the lower classes and specifically from Southern Italy, and a lot of them were fleeing because of Mussolini. Their country has changed a lot from when those waves of immigrants were coming over, and unless there's another Mussolini type then there won't be another wave of them coming over ever again, and if they did then you probably wouldn't recognize them when compared with generational Italian-Americans. The Eurozone crisis is definitely causing groups to emigrate from Europe again but I think you'll find that they are nothing like the people who emigrated centuries or even decades before. We live in a different world now.

The Irish on the other hand had their entire country taken away from them and their land stolen from them and were even sold into slavery (along with "common" English and Scottish as well), and have had war in the northern part of their country for decades now. They're still subject to the same discimination and terrorism by Loyalists (specifically the Orange Order), and their condition has improved but only to the point of people living in frequently war-torn parts of Eastern Europe. That's why illegal Irish people have come over in such numbers over the past few decades especially, because their homeland was not safe for them and they wanted a better life for their children. Despite all of the happy-happy, touchy-feely pieces written about Northern Ireland, the only thing stopping them from going to war again is the cool-headedness of the Catholics in Northern Ireland, and the fact that there's no strong IRA right now to continue the fight or if there is then they haven't put their plans into action yet.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2013, 10:33 AM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40
Happy to do it. Honestly you'd be amazed how much of not just history but even geography and culture has been dictated by wealthy Europeans, and how much history, geography and culture was covered up by them as well.

Obviously as an African American male, you can understand that, given how much of the history of your people has been covered up or twisted around.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2013, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,567 posts, read 2,663,137 times
Reputation: 1658
Quote:
Originally Posted by s1oozne View Post
Probably the worst thing about assimilation and losing heritage is that those groups (one of which I am a part of) are so tied to their neighborhoods and not their heritage, so when gentrification comes and their neighborhood is basically taken away from them all over again, their heritage is as well.
Nobody's TAKING anything. Properties are bought and sold freely on the open market. If eminent domain occasionally happens, the owners are compensated.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 08-11-2013, 11:48 AM
 
177 posts, read 306,228 times
Reputation: 40
Quote:
Originally Posted by mancat100 View Post
Nobody's TAKING anything. Properties are bought and sold freely on the open market. If eminent domain occasionally happens, the owners are compensated.
What is with the defensiveness? I said "basically", and it's got nothing to do with the properties.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
Similar Threads
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top