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Old 03-19-2014, 02:42 PM
 
8,048 posts, read 18,469,927 times
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I see what you're saying here and over in the "Great news for Market East" thread. I guess I'd have to delve in more to see what specific neighborhoods are being targeted by Clarke's proposal. I'll give you that putting an abundance of "workforce housing" in Center City may depress the potential tax base there. But for the sake of discussion, let's say we're talking about Fishtown vs. Olney. The former is obviously up-and-coming as well as convenient to Center City and its concentration of jobs and conveniences. The latter, other than the transportation center, may not have as much to offer and can be one of the more challenging neighborhoods at times. Would you sooner see the workforce housing be clustered around places like Olney before Fishtown?

Of course, there are better examples and comparisons to make than that. My point is that I support the idea of mixed-income housing where working people of, say, households from lower-middle income and up can enjoy the benefits of a stable and convenient community. Sending them off to fortify an area that has not even seen the first signs of gentrification may not be such an attractive proposition. In fact, I would predict that that such households have already considered that and chose not to place their families there.
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:05 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone509 View Post
I would predict that a lot of said rowhomes are located in communities that leave a lot to be desired. Granted, such working-to-lower middle-class households could help bring stability to those areas...but perhaps they decided not to be trailblazers, so to speak. Buying apparently isn't an option, either.

IMO In a city that is becoming increasingly stratified between the "haves" and "have nots", there is not so much left for those in the middle. I feel the program will help to address an obvious need.
Are you aware of why developers (mainly Orie Feinstein) in Point Breeze are being harrassed?
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Old 03-19-2014, 04:54 PM
 
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Originally Posted by Larry Bowa View Post
Are you aware of why developers (mainly Orie Feinstein) in Point Breeze are being harrassed?
Yes, I have heard of issues that developers have had with long-term residents in Point Breeze/Newbold: protests, rocks thrown through windows, etc. I'm not saying that is justified (though they may have the right to protest) but it seems like the residents are smart enough to know that their property taxes will be increasing exponentially. So while the ends certainly don't justify some of the residents' means, I can respect their concerns.

This is a situation where the workforce housing idea may work IMO. By putting in subsidized housing for working/middle-class households, yes it does blunt the potential for property taxes but it also may allow long-term residents to stay while the quality of the community continues to improve. Not only may they be less concerned about the "workforce" residents (presuming it's already primarily a neighborhood of homeowners), they may even welcome them.
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Old 03-19-2014, 08:03 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista
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Originally Posted by mancat100 View Post
Except in the particular areas he's targeting, it's not a choice between Clark's proposal and nothing. Those areas are headed for substantial reinvestment using private funds no matter what. Clark's proposal has one purpose - gentrification mitigation. I wish he'd target areas that actually need the help. Then I'd support him.
The truth is it's areas like Point Breeze and Francisville that are most ripe for the development of affordable housing. Through all of the trial and error (mostly error) of Philadelphia affordable housing we've learned one major lesson. When you concentrate affordable housing strongly in one area, it fails. Mixed income housing or one off structures that blend in with their surroundings is the way to go.

So while private investment will eventually totally recoup these neighborhoods, private investment is not going to build affordable housing, so those with lower incomes will be forced into worse neighborhoods, concentrating poverty and reducing the overall well being of our city. So Clark is right that these neighborhoods need affordable housing and they need it now.

That is unfortunately just about the only Clark is right about. His attitude is all wrong. Private investment and gentrification is a GREAT thing for a neighborhood. Affordable housing thus supplements gentrification, ensuring there is a place for everyone as our neighborhoods improve. The idea that Clark is trying to "fight" gentrification is senseless. He's making villains of the people pushing Philadelphia forward into a great new era. He does this all in the guise of helping the people in Philadelphia who need help the most, but in reality his selling them down the river for self serving political motivations.

I have zero confidence in Clark's ability to do this the right way. He is the worst type of politician and not very bright to boot. If he gets elected mayor of Philadelphia it will set this city back a decade.
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Old 03-20-2014, 04:18 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
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The city shold just leave this alone and let the pieces come together under private funding, if the neighborhood becomes exclusive, so be it. Boo hoo for the people who can no longer afford to rent there and boo hoo for long time homeowners who are concerned about their taxes rising - if they don't like it, they have the choice to move. At least they have the option of walking away with a nice chunk of dough ... that, or stay and live in a nice neighborhood, they can't lose.
Things change, neighborhoods change ... Working class white people have been told for decades when their neighborhoods change - "If you don't like it - leave." Why, all of sudden, because it's now black people (and lets be honest, this is what this is about) being inconvenienced, is it an issue? Politicians didn't care one iota about the "working" class (white) people of Fishtown and South Philly when their neighborhoods "popped."
"Affordable housing" and "opportunity zones" are simply code words in an attempt to make sure the neighborhood stays somewhat black.
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Old 03-20-2014, 04:26 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,041 posts, read 1,281,018 times
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Originally Posted by Tone509 View Post
Yes, I have heard of issues that developers have had with long-term residents in Point Breeze/Newbold: protests, rocks thrown through windows, etc. I'm not saying that is justified (though they may have the right to protest) but it seems like the residents are smart enough to know that their property taxes will be increasing exponentially. So while the ends certainly don't justify some of the residents' means, I can respect their concerns.

This is a situation where the workforce housing idea may work IMO. By putting in subsidized housing for working/middle-class households, yes it does blunt the potential for property taxes but it also may allow long-term residents to stay while the quality of the community continues to improve. Not only may they be less concerned about the "workforce" residents (presuming it's already primarily a neighborhood of homeowners), they may even welcome them.
If long term residents stay, these up and coming neighborhoods will never reach their full potential. Period. Would you like if an "opportunity zone" was constructed in your neighborhood?
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Old 03-20-2014, 06:06 AM
 
8,048 posts, read 18,469,927 times
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Originally Posted by Larry Bowa View Post
The city shold just leave this alone and let the pieces come together under private funding, if the neighborhood becomes exclusive, so be it. Boo hoo for the people who can no longer afford to rent there and boo hoo for long time homeowners who are concerned about their taxes rising - if they don't like it, they have the choice to move. At least they have the option of walking away with a nice chunk of dough ... that, or stay and live in a nice neighborhood, they can't lose.
I'm sure a lot of people share your opinion although I don't necessarily agree.

Quote:
Things change, neighborhoods change ... Working class white people have been told for decades when their neighborhoods change - "If you don't like it - leave."
To a degree, I think most all lower-income-to-working class neighborhoods have been told this to some degree when gentrification started to take hold.

Quote:
Why, all of sudden, because it's now black people (and lets be honest, this is what this is about) being inconvenienced, is it an issue? Politicians didn't care one iota about the "working" class (white) people of Fishtown and South Philly when their neighborhoods "popped."
"Affordable housing" and "opportunity zones" are simply code words in an attempt to make sure the neighborhood stays somewhat black.
Sounds like one should credit Clarke for taking a stand now and blame other politicians (including perhaps Clarke before) for not taking a stand for places like Fishtown and the east side of South Philly.

Last edited by FindingZen; 03-20-2014 at 07:07 AM..
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Old 03-20-2014, 06:11 AM
 
8,048 posts, read 18,469,927 times
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Originally Posted by Larry Bowa View Post
If long term residents stay, these up and coming neighborhoods will never reach their full potential. Period. Would you like if an "opportunity zone" was constructed in your neighborhood?

If an "opportunity zone" of housing designed for working-class and middle-income households - as the article states - opened up in my neighborhood, yes I would welcome it. Are you concerned that the housing will not actually go to working-class and middle-income households?
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Old 03-20-2014, 01:04 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,567 posts, read 2,663,137 times
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There are vast, vast stretches of affordable areas in this city. Miles upon miles. If a few neighborhoods near Center City become unaffordable, so what. I'm really not seeing the problem here.

I really don't mean to sound heartless, but seriously, things change. Life goes on. I got priced out of Center City. Others will get priced out of Point Breeze. There are other places to go. The only exception I would make is for retirees to receive some sort of gentrification protection. Nobody else.

Last edited by mancat100; 03-20-2014 at 01:15 PM..
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Old 03-20-2014, 01:46 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista
2,472 posts, read 3,486,213 times
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Originally Posted by mancat100 View Post
There are vast, vast stretches of affordable areas in this city. Miles upon miles. If a few neighborhoods near Center City become unaffordable, so what. I'm really not seeing the problem here.

I really don't mean to sound heartless, but seriously, things change. Life goes on. I got priced out of Center City. Others will get priced out of Point Breeze. There are other places to go. The only exception I would make is for retirees to receive some sort of gentrification protection. Nobody else.
Short term. Sure, who cares? As you said there are plenty of places for them to go. But over the long term concentrating poverty (and therefore concentrating affluence or the total gentrification of neighborhoods) has terrible results. 50 years from now we'll have to deal with these areas with high concentrations of poverty and crime and pay for damage caused by pushing people around and and wiping entire neighborhoods clear of working class and impoverished people.

Gentrification is great and private funds should shape development. However using public funds to appropriately integrate lower income households into these newly gentrifying areas increases the long term stability of the city and region as a whole and improves the lives of all Philadelphians, not just the wealthy.

Again though, that's not what is happening here, Clark is a moron.
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