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Old 03-20-2014, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,567 posts, read 2,663,137 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillies2011 View Post
Short term. Sure, who cares? As you said there are plenty of places for them to go. But over the long term concentrating poverty (and therefore concentrating affluence or the total gentrification of neighborhoods) has terrible results. 50 years from now we'll have to deal with these areas with high concentrations of poverty and crime and pay for damage caused by pushing people around and and wiping entire neighborhoods clear of working class and impoverished people.

Gentrification is great and private funds should shape development. However using public funds to appropriately integrate lower income households into these newly gentrifying areas increases the long term stability of the city and region as a whole and improves the lives of all Philadelphians, not just the wealthy.

Again though, that's not what is happening here, Clark is a moron.
Long term I think I agree with you. If, decades hence, the vast majority of the city gentrifies, then I'd be right there with you saying we need to have space for the non-affluent.
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Old 03-20-2014, 03:29 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,041 posts, read 1,281,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone509 View Post
If an "opportunity zone" of housing designed for working-class and middle-income households - as the article states - opened up in my neighborhood, yes I would welcome it. Are you concerned that the housing will not actually go to working-class and middle-income households?
There's no doubt in my mind some of the housing will go to the leeches of society.
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Old 03-20-2014, 06:02 PM
 
8,048 posts, read 18,469,927 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Larry Bowa View Post
There's no doubt in my mind some of the housing will go to the leeches of society.
Well, I'm taking Clarke's proposed focus on working-to-middle class households at face value. I respect your skepticism.
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Old 03-20-2014, 06:50 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
1,567 posts, read 2,663,137 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone509 View Post
I see what you're saying here and over in the "Great news for Market East" thread. I guess I'd have to delve in more to see what specific neighborhoods are being targeted by Clarke's proposal. I'll give you that putting an abundance of "workforce housing" in Center City may depress the potential tax base there. But for the sake of discussion, let's say we're talking about Fishtown vs. Olney. The former is obviously up-and-coming as well as convenient to Center City and its concentration of jobs and conveniences. The latter, other than the transportation center, may not have as much to offer and can be one of the more challenging neighborhoods at times. Would you sooner see the workforce housing be clustered around places like Olney before Fishtown?
I guess my answer to this would be twofold. 1. People should live in the best area they can afford. If it's Fishtown, great. If it's Olney, great. 2. Fishtown is doing quite well on its own without the subsidized housing. Let's not mess with a really good thing. Olney needs a bit of help. It's not terrible but it's not great either. Perhaps that would be an area that could benefit from the public investment to help strategically maintain a stable base.
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Old 03-21-2014, 06:24 AM
 
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mancat100 View Post
I guess my answer to this would be twofold. 1. People should live in the best area they can afford. If it's Fishtown, great. If it's Olney, great. 2. Fishtown is doing quite well on its own without the subsidized housing. Let's not mess with a really good thing. Olney needs a bit of help. It's not terrible but it's not great either. Perhaps that would be an area that could benefit from the public investment to help strategically maintain a stable base.
I get what you're saying and agree to a point. I just believe there is not enough of a middle ground that middle-income households would find desirable. I picked Olney arbitrarily but there are huge swaths of the city that would be very affordable for most any working-/middle class household to buy into. The question is: would they be willing to deal with the conditions that make such neighborhoods so inexpensive until enough like-minded people decide to take the leap of faith as well?
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Old 03-21-2014, 12:30 PM
 
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Here's an article that criticizes Clarke's plan. Accountability (or lack thereof) seems to be a common theme as well as a sense of deja vu.
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Old 03-21-2014, 01:19 PM
 
Location: Bella Vista
2,472 posts, read 3,486,213 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mancat100 View Post
I guess my answer to this would be twofold. 1. People should live in the best area they can afford. If it's Fishtown, great. If it's Olney, great. 2. Fishtown is doing quite well on its own without the subsidized housing. Let's not mess with a really good thing. Olney needs a bit of help. It's not terrible but it's not great either. Perhaps that would be an area that could benefit from the public investment to help strategically maintain a stable base.
That's the whole point of what I'm saying though. There really shouldn't be a part of the city that people "can't afford." There should be buildings that people can't afford, but a whole neighborhood that prices out most philadelphians? That is not a good thing. That means concentrating wealth or poverty and that leads to problems. Fairmount I always hold up as a good example of what is still a pretty socioeconomically diverse neighborhood despite extreme gentrification over the past 20 years.

In fairmount you can find 3,000 sq feet mansions directly next door to a walk up apartment building with 5 studio apartments. One person could have a budget of $500 and another person a budget of $5000 and both could end up on the very same block. Now sure, the person with more money is going to have a much larger and nicer place, but that is the way it should be. Even if the apartment is very basic and small, there are a lot of affordable options for people to live there should they choose to.

It's this type of diversity that all neighborhoods should strive to have and when the market won't naturally create these types of affordable places, then that is where we should intervene and create it.
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:20 PM
 
Location: University City, Philadelphia
22,632 posts, read 12,789,064 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by phillies2011 View Post

In fairmount you can find 3,000 sq feet mansions directly next door to a walk up apartment building with 5 studio apartments. One person could have a budget of $500 and another person a budget of $5000 and both could end up on the very same block. Now sure, the person with more money is going to have a much larger and nicer place, but that is the way it should be. Even if the apartment is very basic and small, there are a lot of affordable options for people to live there should they choose to.

It's this type of diversity that all neighborhoods should strive to have and when the market won't naturally create these types of affordable places, then that is where we should intervene and create it.

Yes, I agree with the concept of some degree of diversity living together in harmony in a single neighborhood. I can proudly point to my own neighborhood - Spruce Hill in University City - as an example of this. However I am skeptical of your claim. Where in Fairmount can I find a $500 a month studio apartment on the same block with a 3,000 sq feet mansion? Where? I know some friends that would love to live in a studio on such a block for $500.

What we have here in Spruce Hill are lower middle class singles and couples paying $750 - $1100/mo. for apartments near Victorian "Twin" homes that go for $395K to $650K. There are some house shares where a person gets a bedroom for $500. Essentially what we have is a mix of Lower Middle, Middle Middle, and some Upper Middle class people ... so that is our "diversity."

My criticism of Clarke's plan is it's focus to create a supply of affordable housing in just three neighborhoods ... neighborhoods that are already improving. Why not create affordable housing units - but only a few in each area - in dozens of neighborhoods throughout the city including such far flung places as Oxford Circle, Penn's Grant, Kingsessing, Cobb's Creek, Tacony, Strawberry Mansion, Germantown, East Mount Airy, West Powelton, Port Richmond, Spring Garden, Bella Vista, Walnut Hill, etc.??? This way, these lower income working folks would be more integrated and we can avoid creating more "ghettoes" (we have enough already).
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:28 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,041 posts, read 1,281,018 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Tone509 View Post
I get what you're saying and agree to a point. I just believe there is not enough of a middle ground that middle-income households would find desirable. I picked Olney arbitrarily but there are huge swaths of the city that would be very affordable for most any working-/middle class household to buy into. The question is: would they be willing to deal with the conditions that make such neighborhoods so inexpensive until enough like-minded people decide to take the leap of faith as well?
There are PLENTY of decent/good areas working-/middle class people can buy into in Philadelphia without having to take a "leap of faith." PLENTY.
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Old 03-21-2014, 04:31 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
1,041 posts, read 1,281,018 times
Reputation: 471
Quote:
Originally Posted by phillies2011 View Post
That's the whole point of what I'm saying though. There really shouldn't be a part of the city that people "can't afford." There should be buildings that people can't afford, but a whole neighborhood that prices out most philadelphians? That is not a good thing. That means concentrating wealth or poverty and that leads to problems. Fairmount I always hold up as a good example of what is still a pretty socioeconomically diverse neighborhood despite extreme gentrification over the past 20 years.

In fairmount you can find 3,000 sq feet mansions directly next door to a walk up apartment building with 5 studio apartments. One person could have a budget of $500 and another person a budget of $5000 and both could end up on the very same block. Now sure, the person with more money is going to have a much larger and nicer place, but that is the way it should be. Even if the apartment is very basic and small, there are a lot of affordable options for people to live there should they choose to.

It's this type of diversity that all neighborhoods should strive to have and when the market won't naturally create these types of affordable places, then that is where we should intervene and create it.
Where are these $500 a month apartments in Fairmount? Economic diversity is what created the bad/declining neighborhoods in the first place. Neighborhoods should strive to be exclusive.

Last edited by Larry Bowa; 03-21-2014 at 04:51 PM..
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