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Old 05-09-2014, 01:16 PM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
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I don't think that light rail (or regional/commuter rail) should even be in this discussion. Even Houston has a light rail system!
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:23 PM
 
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The thing about the Philly subway system is that it goes most places people need/want to go. The only time I've really felt like they needed another line is going to the zoo, maybe the Art Museum too. Center City is so small and walkable that you can stroll down to wherever you need to get to without too much trouble. Most of the fun stuff in South Philly isn't too far from Broad Street. Subways can get you to Temple, UPenn, and Drexel. All the fun stuff in Northern Liberties and Fishtown are within walking distance of subway stations too. And regional rail gets you to the stuff on the edges of the city like Manayunk and Mt. Airy. The only thing I will say negatively about the subway is the token-system feels very outdated. On the Newark subway we use a ticket+time-stamp validation system, I've read public transit sites that say that's the best system moving forward...but in my experience it just means a lot of free rides.

Random question? Do Philadelphians use PATCO to get around in the city...I've always used it to get from Camden County into Center City, and it's always seemed like most riders get on in NJ and get off in the city. I can't imagine it's that convenient to get on at 6th and Locust just to head to 15th and Locust.
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:29 PM
 
Location: Cumberland County, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB1562 View Post
True, I forgot about PATCO. I am comparing it to the other East Coast cities, which minus New York, I think is a fair comparison. My point was, I was wondering why Philly, with almost three times the population of Boston or DC, had a smaller and far more poorly maintained subway system. I spent a lot of time as a kid riding on the T and MTA in Boston and New York, so I was surprised that a city as big as Philadelphia had such poor coverage. Although I was not aware that SEPTA is so underfunded, which explains a lot.

And yes, I am well aware that outside the Northeast subway systems are either minimal or nonexistent. But those cities were not really built with public transit in mind, where as Boston, New York, Philly, and DC were. There is far less of a "car-dependant" culture here in the urban Northeast then compared to the South, Texas, or the West Coast which was why I was surprised at Philly's subways.

Again, I AM NOT bashing Philadelphia in any way. I am a transplant to the area and absolutely love living here, but I think it is worth pointing out that, in comparison, subway service is lacking.
It depends on how you define lacking. While the subway system doesn't go everywhere, it's still one of the best subway systems in the country. Philly is one of the few cities that offer 24 hour service on some of its subway lines(PATCO, Trolley Green Lines). Philly is also one of the few cities that has dedicated express tracks(Broad Street Line).


http://www.urbanrail.net/am/phil/philadelphia-map.gif
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:34 PM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJhighlands87 View Post
Random question? Do Philadelphians use PATCO to get around in the city...I've always used it to get from Camden County into Center City, and it's always seemed like most riders get on in NJ and get off in the city. I can't imagine it's that convenient to get on at 6th and Locust just to head to 15th and Locust.
I very very rarely ever used any sort of public transportation to get around Center City in all the years I lived there. It's small, and you can walk in the same amount of time (edit: or bike in less!). And since PATCO doesn't really go anywhere in Philly outside of CC, I can't imagine many find it worth the fare to use it to get around CC.
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:35 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, PA
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJhighlands87 View Post
The thing about the Philly subway system is that it goes most places people need/want to go. The only time I've really felt like they needed another line is going to the zoo, maybe the Art Museum too. Center City is so small and walkable that you can stroll down to wherever you need to get to without too much trouble. Most of the fun stuff in South Philly isn't too far from Broad Street. Subways can get you to Temple, UPenn, and Drexel. All the fun stuff in Northern Liberties and Fishtown are within walking distance of subway stations too. And regional rail gets you to the stuff on the edges of the city like Manayunk and Mt. Airy. The only thing I will say negatively about the subway is the token-system feels very outdated. On the Newark subway we use a ticket+time-stamp validation system, I've read public transit sites that say that's the best system moving forward...but in my experience it just means a lot of free rides.
A regional rail stop will probably be built at the Zoo in the near future. I seriously doubt a subway line would be extended out that way when there is already Regional Rail infrastructure in place that goes right past the zoo and all that needs to be built is a station.

As for the museum, there is talks of turning the old city branch into a light rail line that would connect to the Broad Street Subway line.

And for the ticket system, SEPTA is working to put that on all forms of transportation in Philly. I believe they pushed back the date that will be implemented from this year to next (2015).
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:36 PM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
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Originally Posted by MB1562 View Post
I disagree over the cleanliness of NYC subways. Sure they are far from perfect, but even the ones in the poorer parts of the city (Bronx, upper Harlem, etc.) are generally at least semi-upkept. I would just think that with City Hall being the main station in the system with a transfer and such that it would be better up-kept. I love Philadelphia and can't wait to actually move into the city, but it's subway has a very long way to go before it catches up to Boston or Washington in my opinion.
Transportation is a very complex and often-discussed issue in Philadelphia, and Pennsylvania in general.

Other posters noted several factors in terms of Philly's subway system lack of maintenance/modernization compared to other cities, but I think the most crucial comes down to state funding.

It's important to note that Pennsylvania's recently passed transportation act (Act 89) will ramp up capital funding for SEPTA dramatically (although still not quite to the level of major, comparably-sized transit agencies like WMATA and MBTA):http://pahighwayinfo.org/wp-content/...89-of-2013.pdf. Additionally, City Hall Station, which I would agree has to be the most decrepit major subway station in the US, is FINALLY getting an overhaul: Funding Secured, SEPTA Plans to Rebuild City Hall Station; Part of a Long List of Improvements | News | Philadelphia Magazine

Historically -- unlike states like Massachusetts, New York, Illinois and California -- Pennsylvania has had to contend with a much more rural-based legislature that receives a larger chunk of the transportation funding pie for other capital projects across the state. Not to suggest that there are not needs in other parts of the state, but Philly has definitely had to contend MUCH more fiercely for the funding it receives than cities like Boston, NY, San Francisco, Chicago and DC (the other cities of the "Big 6" transit systems) in their related state legislatures. Also, I know it sounds almost unbelievable, but apparently PennDOT maintains about the same amount of road miles as other states in the Northeast combined (Interstate highways in PA may not be as rough as motorists think - Morning Call That's a pretty massive network of roads to have to maintain on top of funding public transit networks.

As Summers noted, it is important to also keep in context that there are really only a handful of viable subways systems in the US. The key reason? They're SUPER expensive to build/maintain. While Philly has PLENTY of room for improvement in its subway system, it should consider itself very lucky that it actually has an operating subway system today -- unlike many other major cities that will likely never have something similar -- despite its condition, it's a HUGE asset.

Philadelphia also has a much better case for expansion today, since it has a viable core system that could extend to areas with growing populations/employment (i.e., the Navy Yard, Fairmount/West Philly, and Northeast Philly).
SEPTA is starting with the basics, though, of fare modernization (open source payment) and station renovation. I think within 15 years, the public perceptions of SEPTA will be much higher, including its subway system.

Last edited by Duderino; 05-09-2014 at 01:51 PM..
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:40 PM
 
Location: Cumberland County, NJ
8,631 posts, read 12,916,868 times
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Originally Posted by rotodome View Post
I very very rarely ever used any sort of public transportation to get around Center City in all the years I lived there. It's small, and you can walk in the same amount of time. And since PATCO doesn't really go anywhere in Philly outside of CC, I can't imagine many find it worth the fare to use it to get around CC.
It's only a $1.40 to travel through the Philadelphia stations. That's actually less than the $2.25 base fare that it cost to ride the other subway lines.

http://www.ridepatco.org/schedules/fares.html

SEPTA | Cash, Tokens, Transfers
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Old 05-09-2014, 01:52 PM
 
Location: back in Philadelphia!
3,263 posts, read 5,620,608 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
It's only a $1.40 to travel through the Philadelphia stations. That's actually less than the $2.25 base fare that it cost to ride the other subway lines.

//www.city-data.com/forum/phila...ntained-2.html

SEPTA | Cash, Tokens, Transfers
The fare is really irrelevant. I meant it's not often "worth it" to walk however many blocks to a train, wait for the train, have it take you a few blocks, then get off and walk however many blocks to your destination.
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Old 05-09-2014, 04:57 PM
 
Location: Midwest
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1) The Broad Street line is ridiculously overbuilt and underutilized. The only reason there are express tracks is because what is built was supposed to be the trunk line for a system that would have served all sections of the city - most notably upper northwest, lower northwest, and northeast Philadelphia - the lines would have joined the trunk line around olney, erie, and fairmount respectively.

So having a four track system isn't really all that much to brag about - I take the Broad Street Line everyday, and if it was two track local system things wouldn't be that much different. The folks switching from a local at Girard to an express when the trains get there at the same time are only saving like 4 or 5 minutes on their commute. I doubt it would really pass any modern day cost analysis.

Don't get me wrong - it's nice to have. I'm a user of the 8th and Market train (which runs express) - but in all honesty if it didn't exist taking the local to city hall and switching is probably not something I would even consider complaining about - it would just become part of the daily routine and it would take me a couple minutes longer to get home from 8th and Market.

2) It's pretty normal for people to use SEPTA to go to work. What's not so normal is your average blue and white collar Philadelphians (let alone wealthy Philadelphians) to use SEPTA for other everyday activities - especially if they already have a car. Perhaps a special trip to Center City. But grocery shopping, everyday errands, visiting friends, doing recreational activities most people don't use public transit if they have an alternative. And most people have an alternative.

And therefore,

3) The dense, urban neighborhoods along the BSL, MFL, and PATCO all tend to be extremely undervalued and underbuilt. In a city where public transit was more widely used by a more diverse population, all these possible TOD's, - West Market, 52nd Street, 60th Street, Front Street, Kensington Avenue, Frankford Avenue, Germantown and Erie, Germantown and Lehigh, Broad and Olney, Downtown Camden - they would look remarkably different. Probably something more akin to the area I was just recently hanging out in the Bronx, a pretty blue collar area with well used public transit.

The urban core with high demand from diverse groups remains fairly small in Philadelphia - as noted by rotodome (and myself previously) walking or taking the bus often makes a lot more sense than building rapid transit.

4) One final note, that goes along with 2 and 3. Commuter Rail is primarily a way to get to work. It's not really a substitute for a car the way rapid transit is. I speak as someone who doesn't have a car, takes the regional rail multiple times per week, and has waited 60-90 minutes for a train. Most lines even during rush hour only run every 30 minutes.

It's an awesome asset for a city, and very few have them, but it is in no way the same, with the possible exception of key points between Wayne Junction and Jenkintown, as well as along the Main Line, as a reasonable alternative to automobile transportation.

Quote:
Random question? Do Philadelphians use PATCO to get around in the city...I've always used it to get from Camden County into Center City, and it's always seemed like most riders get on in NJ and get off in the city. I can't imagine it's that convenient to get on at 6th and Locust just to head to 15th and Locust.
I work near 8th and Market and used to live near the 16th Street terminus of PATCO. Almost everyday I considered getting on the PATCO - but assuming it ran on time I'd still only save about 5 minutes over walking, and be out more than a buck. Never even tried it once for the novelty, but would often catch a Walnut Street Bus and make almost as good of time. Highlighting some of my above points.
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Old 05-09-2014, 05:03 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
12,000 posts, read 12,845,323 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by NJhighlands87 View Post

Random question? Do Philadelphians use PATCO to get around in the city...I've always used it to get from Camden County into Center City, and it's always seemed like most riders get on in NJ and get off in the city. I can't imagine it's that convenient to get on at 6th and Locust just to head to 15th and Locust.
I'd say no and agree with others that I usually find myself walking all over CC-I have used it to get to concerts in Camden and it is actually very cool to take a subway across a suspension bridge-I'm sure there aren't too many lines like that outside of NYC.
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