Gay Bashing in Philly (Philadelphia: condo, crimes, shop)

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

There's nothing scientific about fashion.

Which why I put more stock in random sample Gallup polls than self-selected online Cosmo Mag surveys.

[jazzy jeff]

Originally Posted by Don163

Of course you have. But that's not the point. These studies aren't saying that there aren't highly educated people that do not support gay rights. What these studies are saying is that the more education you have the greater likelihood that you will support gay rights.

One point that must be mentioned when talking about surveys and gay marriage is, the divide seems more generational then ideological. Surveys have shown as much as 70 percent support among the 30 and under crowd. That is why I am surprised and disturbed about this case.

I am an ally to the LGBT community and also an advocate to make sports more inclusive for them. There is a lot of sensitivity training going on among our youth sports groups and schools and have been making great strides, but with the one suspect being a HS basketball coach much more needs to be done.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by Pine to Vine

The councilman's statement did strike me a just a tad odd in singling out suburbanites. But I can understand him speaking in the heat of the moment in light of the above dynamic. If one wants to quibble on this point, I think they are missing the forest by focusing on a shrub. Considering most of the other public officials from both the city and Bucks County have been mum on this crime, I'm glad he spoke up, even if he may have stepped on a few suburban toes.

I don't see his statement as anti-suburban. Rather, these are non-city residents who came into a gay-friendly part of the city and committed a hate crime. When you're on someone else's turf, you respect it. Otherwise, don't come.

Certainly, as another poster pointed out, these thugs could just as easily have been from Somerton or Roxborough or Bridesburg. The city as a whole isn't some enigma of tolerance. Rather, it's home to the most socially progressive enclaves, including the one in which the attack occurred.

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

Typically, the city is much more liberal than the suburbs

Other than the hip/upwardly mobile portions of the city, I disagree as far as social issues go. Obviously, economic concerns (which in large part causes groups that are otherwise socially conservative in the aggregate, like African Americans, to vote Democrat en masse) are another issue entirely.

[AJNEOA]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

Other than the hip/upwardly mobile portions of the city, I disagree as far as social issues go. Obviously, economic concerns (which in large part causes groups that are otherwise socially conservative in the aggregate, like African Americans, to vote Democrat en masse) are another issue entirely.

Anything to back that up? Economic concerns may be a large factor, but there are many important social considerations associated with political association. I know some women are not going to vote Republican or risk voting Independent/Liberal for fear of more conservative government getting in office. The same can be said for many others, including the gay community. How many gays are going to vote for Republicans who are telling them that they can't marry because a man and a woman shouldn't be a legal instituation??? Gun control, foreign wars, abortion, gay marriage, immigration, etc. etc.

One source of actual data would be to look at voting records in the last presidential election:

Philadelphia County - 85% voted democratic
Montgomery County - 57% voted democratic
Delaware County - 60% voted democratic
Chester County - 49% voted democratic
Bucks County - 50% voted democratic

Source: City-data, based on 2012 presidential records

And to tie things back in so that this thread does not get shut-down...the point is that I understand why some folks might feel "intruded upon" by others from less liberal areas when an incident like this occur. That's the point.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

Philadelphia County - 85% voted democratic

That doesn't invalidate my point one bit, since I specifically stated that African Americans vote Democrat en masse despite being socially conservative in aggregate.

But here's a comprehensive report on American attitudes toward same-sex marriage:

http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-co...GBT_REPORT.pdf

Among other things, as of 2013:

39% of African Americans support gay marriage compared to 53% of Hispanics and 55% of white, non-Hispanics.

Irrespective of race, 66% of those with post-graduate education supported gay marriage, compared to 60% of college graduates, 57% of people with some college, and 46% of those with high school educations or less.

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

And to tie things back in so that this thread does not get shut-down...the point is that I understand why some folks might feel "intruded upon" by others from less liberal areas when an incident like this occur. That's the point.

The urban-suburban distinction is still inapposite.

[AJNEOA]

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

That doesn't invalidate my point one bit, since I specifically stated that African Americans vote Democrat en masse despite being socially conservative in aggregate.

But here's a comprehensive report on American attitudes toward same-sex marriage:

http://publicreligion.org/site/wp-co...GBT_REPORT.pdf

Among other things, as of 2013:

39% of African Americans support gay marriage compared to 53% of Hispanics and 55% of white, non-Hispanics.

Irrespective of race, 66% of those with post-graduate education supported gay marriage, compared to 60% of college graduates, 57% of people with some college, and 46% of those with high school educations or less.


The urban-suburban distinction is still inapposite.

You ignored my point completely regarding all the other social issues that I mentioned. Here they are again:

Gun control, foreign wars, abortion, gay marriage, immigration, etc. etc.

Are you saying that they don't count? While I very clearly acknowledge that voting records are not crystal clear/clean, I'm not sure how you can tell which blacks, which educated or which uneducated feel more/less supportive of the gay community per your stats. In other words your percentages don't paint a picture that Bucks County is more socially liberal than Philadelphia County.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

Ummm...you ignored my point completely regarding all the other social issues that I mentioned. Here they are again:

Gun control, foreign wars, abortion, gay marriage, immigration, etc. etc.

Are you saying that they don't count? And yes, I did very clearly acknowledge that voting records are not crystal clear/clean.

Gay marriage was already addressed above.

Abortion:
CHART: Public Opinion On Abortion Broken Down By Race, Religion (AAs less in favor than many whites, but in the middle overall [right about the same as NHW Catholics])

Gun control:
http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old...ntrol-2011.pdf (AAs significantly more supportive than whites, but suburbanites are only modestly less supportive than urban dwellers)

Immigration:
http://www.pewresearch.org/files/old...bdeck/21-2.gif (AAs moderately more in favor)

Foreign wars aren't a social issue, but a foreign policy issue.

It's a relatively small cross-sampling, but overall, I'd say this supports the idea that, once again, as a whole, there isn't a huge difference in social issue attitudes between the city and suburbs. Some issues cancel out others. I'm done arguing about this though, as you've been making statements and I've been fetching studies.

[ElijahAstin]

Last thing I'm submitting on the matter (which actually brings us back on-topic):

This is an older study (2000-2004) regarding, among other things, urban-suburban-rural attitudes toward LGBT persons. While the absolute numbers have surely changed, the relative differences probably have not. In the Northeastern United States, ~63% of urban dwellers thought same-sex relations were wrong compared to ~66% of suburbanites. Barely any difference at all.

http://scholars.unh.edu/cgi/viewcont...context=carsey

[rotodome]

Honestly, I think you guys are reading waayy too much into a random urban/suburban comment. It's really the least important aspect of what happened, and IMO shouldn't be dominating the discussion.

[ElijahAstin]

Originally Posted by rotodome

Honestly, I think you guys are reading waayy too much into a random urban/suburban comment. It's really the least important aspect of what happened, and IMO shouldn't be dominating the discussion.

Hey, I wasn't doing the heavy reading. I said:

Originally Posted by ElijahAstin

I don't see his statement as anti-suburban. Rather, these are non-city residents who came into a gay-friendly part of the city and committed a hate crime. When you're on someone else's turf, you respect it. Otherwise, don't come.

I got led down the tangential rabbit-hole for different reasons.

Regardless, your'e absolutely right that we should get back to the real issue. Hopefully the police will make some more headway over the weekend.