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these kind of neighborhoods with working class (blue collar tradesmen/small business owners/cops & firemen) populations that are Polish/Irish/Italian etc. residents are a dying breed in NYC unless you go deep into the suburbs. looking for a neighborhood like this in the beautiful city of Philadelphia. somewhere that isn't gentrifying anytime soon, is primarily working class white ethnic,and urban (rowhouses/apartment buildings with good train bus access) somewhere with a strong cultural community. If you know anything about NYC think of what Bensonhurst, Dyker Heights, Howard Beach etc used to be like. I have heard of Port Richmond and Fishtown, and of but I think these are becoming yuupie 'hoods...right?
name a few?
I'll also be asking this in Boston and Chicago forums
these kind of neighborhoods with working class (blue collar tradesmen/small business owners/cops & firemen) populations that are Polish/Irish/Italian etc. residents are a dying breed in NYC unless you go deep into the suburbs. looking for a neighborhood like this in the beautiful city of Philadelphia. somewhere that isn't gentrifying anytime soon, is primarily working class white ethnic,and urban (rowhouses/apartment buildings with good train bus access) somewhere with a strong cultural community. If you know anything about NYC think of what Bensonhurst, Dyker Heights, Howard Beach etc used to be like. I have heard of Port Richmond and Fishtown, and of but I think these are becoming yuupie 'hoods...right?
name a few?
I'll also be asking this in Boston and Chicago forums
Like you mentioned Port Richmond, and also Bridesburg. In the Northeast: Mayfair, Fox Chase, Morrell Park, Parkwood, Millbrook. Some of those are more middle class than strictly working class and are farther away from the core of the city but fit the description above.
There are neighborhoods in South Philly like that also but I'm not sure to what extent people would say they're gentrifying.
Definitely agree with Port Richmond and Bridesburg. Fishtown is too far along in the process to be what you are looking for IMO.
Pennsport is a traditionally irish neighborhood in south philly. It is undergoing some gentrification but not at the rate of other south philly neighborhoods. Directly south is Whitman which is pretty solidly working class. I would recommend looking in all of South Philly south of Snyder. Good luck!
One place I would describe as a white working class neighborhood is the overlapping area of Fishtown and Port Richmond that is affectionately known as "Port Fishington."
I'm gonna make a bold statement: all of the safer neighborhoods in Philly are becoming "gentrified" to one degree or another, certainly those that have a majority white population. The exception are some neighborhoods in the Great Northeast that are slowly sliding downhill. Even some formally rough and dangerous mostly black neighborhoods are becoming gentrified by virtue of their proximity to better neighborhoods ... Point Breeze in South Philly and Mantua in West Philly are examples.
As a blue collar working class guy myself I would caution anyone who is quick to stereotype. "Blue collar professions" nowadays are often better paid than "white collar professions." A plumber, carpenter or a cop can have a much higher income than an office manager or a banking officer.
I got my computer fixed by some really nice polish guys (I think they were polish at least, you can watch their video and try to guess) in Port Richmond. Scorpion Computers | We Do Computers Right | Computer Repair & More I wanted to go somewhere local and just googled computer repair Philadelphia, and they popped up. You can still find old Italian women making handmade pasta in south philly, and a red faced old Irish man smoking a cigar in the neighborhoods all around Kensington and what not. A lot of Philly is still working class and I like it that way. The only neon lights I want to see are on my diner telling me they are open.
these kind of neighborhoods with working class (blue collar tradesmen/small business owners/cops & firemen) populations that are Polish/Irish/Italian etc. residents are a dying breed in NYC unless you go deep into the suburbs. looking for a neighborhood like this in the beautiful city of Philadelphia. somewhere that isn't gentrifying anytime soon, is primarily working class white ethnic,and urban (rowhouses/apartment buildings with good train bus access) somewhere with a strong cultural community. If you know anything about NYC think of what Bensonhurst, Dyker Heights, Howard Beach etc used to be like. I have heard of Port Richmond and Fishtown, and of but I think these are becoming yuupie 'hoods...right?
name a few?
I'll also be asking this in Boston and Chicago forums
bridesburg and port richmond. there has been talk of port richmond gentrifying but it hasn't happened, it's seen some influx but the money and people are going westinto kensington more than northeast nito port richmond. that isn't encessarily a bad thing. those two places still have plenty of places to eat pierogies, talk polish, and buy kielbasa. the bridesburg train station is a dump but it's on the trenton line in case you wanted to take the train to trenton and transfer to njt to nyc
Philadelphia has the neighborhoods the original poster is looking for; however, unlike New York, those communities are slowly disappearing (rapidly in some cases, but not as rapidly as the late 90s and early 00s) not so much because of gentrification, but because of continued dramatic rates of "white flight" from these areas. If one were to compare census reports of similar neighborhoods in other cities to places like those in question in Philadelphia, I would argue a vaster number of whites have fled these kinds of neighborhoods than in other cities of similar sizes. Philadelphia, unlike many of the other five largest cities in the nation, still had a (small) white majority in 1990 and then a large plurality in 2000 (about 44%) in 2000, now probably 35% at most. Philadelphia is also remarkable for having much smaller Asian and Hispanic populations, proportionally (though that is changing) than other of the largest cities. Even most intermediate-sized Pennsylvania cities have dramatically higher Hispanic populations than Philadelphia in terms of proportion of the whole. So finding these kinds of non-gentrified white neighborhoods in Philadelphia is increasingly challenging, especially adjacent to the central parts of the city (where gentrification is often the reason) or in more outlying areas that were once vastly white in population farther away from the core but within the city's limits.
Several good examples have been listed in previous posts: Mayfair is a great community but sorely needs a wave of new energy - in a sense, Mayfair would benefit greatly from at least a little gentrification, as even it can no longer rely solely on city employees to fill its houses and for their kids to move in later, too. To a disturbing degree, whole areas of the Northeast around Mayfair have slid quickly from being typically immaculate if uniform in housing stock, to shabby. Oxford Circle is a sore spot in this regard, Juniata Park being another - never fancy places but until the very late 90s in most ways, safe and very clean. Frankford has seen a dramatic decline, and so have areas that I think many of us never imagined would "go down" as people say, like Wissinoming, parts of Tacony, as huge sections west of the Roosevelt Boulevard south of Cottman Avenue. Perhaps the one community that makes me saddest is Lawndale/Crescentville ("Lawncrest") which IMO was potentially the most attractive NE community until the last maybe five to eight years. There is crime there that never was present in the past, and whole blocks just don't look as nice as they once did. Rising Sun Avenue was a very attractive stretch of shops, walkable, etc...it's still not terrible, but I find the rapid shift culturally, jarring. I'm just stunned that areas change so quickly in terms of investment and disinvestment, and then decline.
I'm rambling and will doubtlessly be attacked as always happens whenever one posts anything on a forum like this, but just some thoughts. Port Richmond, Fishtown, Bridesburg, the central part of Mayfair (from Frankford to the Blvd, Levick to Rhawn), and then big parts of lower South Philadelphia, are all still remnants of "typical" white Philadelphia neighborhoods full of Irish, Italian, Polish, etc. -American families. But they are dying breed in the city limits.
I will always argue that Philadelphia has some of the most firmly entrenched norms whether people want to believe it or not, or admit to it or not, that "they" live over there, and "we" live over here. The consequences of this intransigence are major and the city's landscape continues to reflect that. "They" move in, "we" move out. Read into that what you will. This is not a fantasy...
It is worth discussing, but I don't see it often discussed in forums, that so-called gentrification, which is at least in Philadelphia most rapid in already white areas, undermines the same cultural fabric that race/class based gentrification might as the established "white ethnics" move out: churches, social clubs, shops, etc. all seem to disappear slowly/quickly, it depends. For example, Manayunk seems completely gutted culturally at this point. The parishes have closed save for one, there is no longer any Catholic school nearby, the social clubs are mostly gone, families left and their kids did not buy in and live there later, etc. It's disturbing, I think. A place goes from being "safe" and "okay" for college and post-college kids/professionals to buy into or rent in, and then as their social needs play out, established families opt out, or importantly, sell-out as prices rise knowing the getting is good. Very complex, all of this, but interesting to think about.
Of course one last factor to note is that part of the white flight is really just the death rate playing out for what had been a vast elderly white populace living in formerly all-white swathes of the Northeast of Philadelphia and some other sections like Overbrook (very fast white flight in late 90s) or the upper sections of Olney or East Oak Lane, for example.
All of this I suppose could apply to parts of Queens and Brooklyn, or Southwest Chicago, or Boston, etc. even in recent years.
Just some context on why these kinds of areas will be harder to find than even 10-15 years ago in Philadelphia.
Philadelphia has the neighborhoods the original poster is looking for; however, unlike New York, those communities are slowly disappearing (rapidly in some cases, but not as rapidly as the late 90s and early 00s) not so much because of gentrification, but because of continued dramatic rates of "white flight" from these areas. If one were to compare census reports of similar neighborhoods in other cities to places like those in question in Philadelphia, I would argue a vaster number of whites have fled these kinds of neighborhoods than in other cities of similar sizes. Philadelphia, unlike many of the other five largest cities in the nation, still had a (small) white majority in 1990 and then a large plurality in 2000 (about 44%) in 2000, now probably 35% at most. Philadelphia is also remarkable for having much smaller Asian and Hispanic populations, proportionally (though that is changing) than other of the largest cities. Even most intermediate-sized Pennsylvania cities have dramatically higher Hispanic populations than Philadelphia in terms of proportion of the whole. So finding these kinds of non-gentrified white neighborhoods in Philadelphia is increasingly challenging, especially adjacent to the central parts of the city (where gentrification is often the reason) or in more outlying areas that were once vastly white in population farther away from the core but within the city's limits.
Several good examples have been listed in previous posts: Mayfair is a great community but sorely needs a wave of new energy - in a sense, Mayfair would benefit greatly from at least a little gentrification, as even it can no longer rely solely on city employees to fill its houses and for their kids to move in later, too. To a disturbing degree, whole areas of the Northeast around Mayfair have slid quickly from being typically immaculate if uniform in housing stock, to shabby. Oxford Circle is a sore spot in this regard, Juniata Park being another - never fancy places but until the very late 90s in most ways, safe and very clean. Frankford has seen a dramatic decline, and so have areas that I think many of us never imagined would "go down" as people say, like Wissinoming, parts of Tacony, as huge sections west of the Roosevelt Boulevard south of Cottman Avenue. Perhaps the one community that makes me saddest is Lawndale/Crescentville ("Lawncrest") which IMO was potentially the most attractive NE community until the last maybe five to eight years. There is crime there that never was present in the past, and whole blocks just don't look as nice as they once did. Rising Sun Avenue was a very attractive stretch of shops, walkable, etc...it's still not terrible, but I find the rapid shift culturally, jarring. I'm just stunned that areas change so quickly in terms of investment and disinvestment, and then decline.
I'm rambling and will doubtlessly be attacked as always happens whenever one posts anything on a forum like this, but just some thoughts. Port Richmond, Fishtown, Bridesburg, the central part of Mayfair (from Frankford to the Blvd, Levick to Rhawn), and then big parts of lower South Philadelphia, are all still remnants of "typical" white Philadelphia neighborhoods full of Irish, Italian, Polish, etc. -American families. But they are dying breed in the city limits.
I will always argue that Philadelphia has some of the most firmly entrenched norms whether people want to believe it or not, or admit to it or not, that "they" live over there, and "we" live over here. The consequences of this intransigence are major and the city's landscape continues to reflect that. "They" move in, "we" move out. Read into that what you will. This is not a fantasy...
It is worth discussing, but I don't see it often discussed in forums, that so-called gentrification, which is at least in Philadelphia most rapid in already white areas, undermines the same cultural fabric that race/class based gentrification might as the established "white ethnics" move out: churches, social clubs, shops, etc. all seem to disappear slowly/quickly, it depends. For example, Manayunk seems completely gutted culturally at this point. The parishes have closed save for one, there is no longer any Catholic school nearby, the social clubs are mostly gone, families left and their kids did not buy in and live there later, etc. It's disturbing, I think. A place goes from being "safe" and "okay" for college and post-college kids/professionals to buy into or rent in, and then as their social needs play out, established families opt out, or importantly, sell-out as prices rise knowing the getting is good. Very complex, all of this, but interesting to think about.
Of course one last factor to note is that part of the white flight is really just the death rate playing out for what had been a vast elderly white populace living in formerly all-white swathes of the Northeast of Philadelphia and some other sections like Overbrook (very fast white flight in late 90s) or the upper sections of Olney or East Oak Lane, for example.
All of this I suppose could apply to parts of Queens and Brooklyn, or Southwest Chicago, or Boston, etc. even in recent years.
Just some context on why these kinds of areas will be harder to find than even 10-15 years ago in Philadelphia.
Hm, that's very interesting actually. Let me ask you a question, when white flight from these "white ethnic" neighborhoods happen, especially with white folks lower in income (not affluent people who can afford a colonial and a 1/2 acre in cherry hill) is it usually to a similar location so that the community stays intact to an extent? For instance in NY the pattern seems to be that Italians from Brooklyn move to Italian areas of Staten Island and then to heavily Italian towns in North Jersey. Whereas Italian communities from Queens basically picked up and regrouped on Long Island. Are there any close-in suburbs that are known to have lots of Italians/Irish etc. or is it just a mix?
Irish communities over here seem to be a lot more viable because NYC still gets a steady flow from Ireland (Woodlawn on the Bronx/Yonkers border is extremely Irish and anywhere you go in the area you will hear young single guys or young families with heavy irish brogues).
Another thing I have noticed here is that Italian areas in the Bronx tend to get a lot of young immigrants from Albania. It's interesting because they blend well being that the two countries are both right next to each other, and Albania has been colonized by Italy a lot during it's history. A lot of Italian restaurants around here are owned and staffed by Albanians.
In 15 years, do you think an area like Bridesburg will still be similar? Looking at a map it seems remote to Center City and right on the NJ border so I don't think it's hot for the urban pioneer crowd. Additionally it's surrounded by white neighborhoods and it seems (from reading online) that the area has a rep for insularity and being a bit "roughneck", additionally Philly is one of the few modern cities that have property in city limits that is remarkably cheaper than in the suburbs (seeing $400 studios in Port Richmond on Craigslist) so maybe it would be too expensive for these people that are low income to move to the burbs.
On the Northwest side of the city there remains a couple of options : Central and Lower Roxborough, Wissahickon( the neighborhood adjacent to the park with the same name) , and parts of Manayunk that has not yet gone through gentrification ( the further away from Main Street the better you are). In East Falls there is a small section that may fit your needs around Bowman and Vaux Streets. However it is surrounded by areas that are either upscale or gentrified. As far as Upper Roxborough, Dearnley Park and Andorra are concerned I would avoid there if you don't drive. As much as they are clean , quiet, safe middle class
family neighborhoods they are for the most part very suburban 50s, 60s, 70s Split Level, Ranch and Cape Cod housing stock, strip shopping centers and very car centric. There are a few bus
lines that go up there but that area is not very walkable especially where Ridge and Henry Avenues meet. Also all along Henry Ave. near Wissahickon Park from Ridge Ave through East Falls is also very suburban and auto centric.
bridesburg and port richmond. there has been talk of port richmond gentrifying but it hasn't happened, it's seen some influx but the money and people are going westinto kensington more than northeast nito port richmond. that isn't encessarily a bad thing. those two places still have plenty of places to eat pierogies, talk polish, and buy kielbasa. the bridesburg train station is a dump but it's on the trenton line in case you wanted to take the train to trenton and transfer to njt to nyc
The Bridesburg train station isn't actually in Bridesburg.
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