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Old 05-01-2016, 07:13 PM
 
34 posts, read 58,652 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by RVA_DELCO View Post
Last year's millage rates:

http://www.co.delaware.pa.us/treasurer/TaxRate2015.pdf

Upper Darby
County: 5.6040
Township: 19.9200
School District: 35.2160

Total: 60.7400

(On the appraised value, not the sale value)
Because I don't have a great grasp of property taxes, I assume this means 6.07% of appraised value of the house is the total I pay on property taxes. So a 200k house would pay out ~12k/year?

Yeah, that is very steep, but the math for what those types of houses cost in other halfway decent neighborhoods withing 25 mins of CC seems to still favor Drexel Hill.

Also, I spent hours driving through various parts of Drexel Hill last weekend and honestly there was nowhere I felt remotely unsafe until I hit Darby, then things started falling off the cliff. Is it just the South part that is considered unsafe and then whatever spillover you get from UD?
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Old 05-01-2016, 09:24 PM
 
Location: Dude...., I'm right here
1,232 posts, read 798,194 times
Reputation: 731
With the price of the house, you get your money back. If you pay 300K, it goes towards the equity of the property. Not so with your taxes, you get "services" in return. And with the increasing taxes, let's assume your house price will decline, and you'll lose equity.

This is a no-brainer. Paying $12K taxes over many years adds up. So in 10 yrs you're $120K poorer with nothing to show for it.

It's like the UK TV licence which is about $150 per year. Over the life of the TV, the TV ends up costing less than the annual fees for watching "free" BBC programming. Silly but that's the way it is across the pond.


Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikes View Post
Because I don't have a great grasp of property taxes, I assume this means 6.07% of appraised value of the house is the total I pay on property taxes. So a 200k house would pay out ~12k/year?

Yeah, that is very steep, but the math for what those types of houses cost in other halfway decent neighborhoods withing 25 mins of CC seems to still favor Drexel Hill.

Also, I spent hours driving through various parts of Drexel Hill last weekend and honestly there was nowhere I felt remotely unsafe until I hit Darby, then things started falling off the cliff. Is it just the South part that is considered unsafe and then whatever spillover you get from UD?
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Old 05-02-2016, 08:10 AM
 
633 posts, read 491,681 times
Reputation: 1109
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikes View Post
Because I don't have a great grasp of property taxes, I assume this means 6.07% of appraised value of the house is the total I pay on property taxes. So a 200k house would pay out ~12k/year?

Actually- no. It took me a minute to realize where the discrepancy is. Taxes are based on "assessed" value. Your "appraisal" is what the bank considers the house to be worth, and taxes are NOT based on this figure. The assessed value of the house is usually nowhere near the purchase cost (appraisal). Delaware county hasn't performed a countywide assessment for tax purposes since 1998. That 1998 figure is what most taxes are based on, with one or two caveats.


You can look at the assessed value of a house vs. the purchase price on the county records system here. Note that this will display county taxes, not school taxes though.

Real Estate and Tax Records Address Query


For instance, This house I just pulled off of Zillow

721 Concord Ave, Drexel Hill, PA 19026 | MLS #6747675 | Zillow

is for sale at $199K. It's assessed at $125K. Total taxes on it are about 7K a year. This is on the high end, but is typical for that area. 12K for a house appraised at 200K is absurd, and would only happen if this was new construction (unlikely in that area) or the homeowner did some recent significant renovation which caused the municipality to do a reassessment.

Quote:
Yeah, that is very steep, but the math for what those types of houses cost in other halfway decent neighborhoods withing 25 mins of CC seems to still favor Drexel Hill.
Possibly. Not at 12K in taxes though, see above for why that is. Keep in mind that property tax is also tax deductible from your federal taxes, so how palatable property tax is may depend a lot on your personal financial situation.

Quote:
Also, I spent hours driving through various parts of Drexel Hill last weekend and honestly there was nowhere I felt remotely unsafe until I hit Darby, then things started falling off the cliff. Is it just the South part that is considered unsafe and then whatever spillover you get from UD?
You may be confused. Darby is nowhere near Drexel hill. you would have had to drive through several other townships before getting there. See this helpful county map

https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikiped...nnsylvania.png

you generally would have had to pass through the rest of upper darby, east Lansdowne, Lansdowne, then Yeadon (via Lansdowne avenue, Baltimore ave, or church lane) OR Clifton heights, aldan, Collingdale, etc (via bishop avenue, or springfield road) before you hit Darby.

Note that Darby Township is a separate municipality from Darby or Upper Darby and generally not considered unsafe. Really I wouldn't tag any of Delaware county as being "unsafe area" with the exception of Darby, Chester City, most of Trainer and Marcus Hook, and the section of Upper Darby around the 69th street terminal area. The rest of it has negligible violent crime- and that includes all of Drexel hill.

Last edited by Burger Fan; 05-02-2016 at 09:40 AM..
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:30 AM
 
Location: Dude...., I'm right here
1,232 posts, read 798,194 times
Reputation: 731
It's really mute for you to say the assessed values are based on 1998 figures but the RE taxes on the property you posted have increased from $5,000 in 2005 to $7,500 in 2015. During this period, the appraised value has fallen by almost $100,000. So while the appraised value is decreasing, the taxes are on the rise. Even during the housing downturn, the taxes kept going up!!!



Quote:
Originally Posted by Burger Fan View Post
Actually- no. It took me a minute to realize where the discrepancy is. Taxes are based on "assessed" value. Your "appraisal" is what the bank considers the house to be worth, and taxes are NOT based on this figure. The assessed value of the house is usually nowhere near the purchase cost (appraisal). Delaware county hasn't performed a countywide assessment for tax purposes since 1998. That 1998 figure is what most taxes are based on, with one or two caveats.


You can look at the assessed value of a house vs. the purchase price on the county records system here. Note that this will display county taxes, not school taxes though.

Real Estate and Tax Records Address Query


For instance, This house I just pulled off of Zillow

721 Concord Ave, Drexel Hill, PA 19026 | MLS #6747675 | Zillow

is for sale at $199K. It's assessed at $125K. Total taxes on it are about 7K a year. This is on the high end, but is typical for that area. 12K for a house appraised at 200K is absurd, and would only happen if this was new construction (unlikely in that area) or the homeowner did some recent significant renovation which caused the municipality to do a reassessment.
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Old 05-02-2016, 10:43 AM
 
633 posts, read 491,681 times
Reputation: 1109
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ondoner View Post
It's really mute for you to say the assessed values are based on 1998 figures but the RE taxes on the property you posted have increased from $5,000 in 2005 to $7,500 in 2015. During this period, the appraised value has fallen by almost $100,000. So while the appraised value is decreasing, the taxes are on the rise. Even during the housing downturn, the taxes kept going up!!!

The assessed values ARE based on 1998 figures, and a casual google search will show you this. I don't know why you cite the appraised value, because it's not relevant to taxation. Do you not understand the difference between an assessment and an appraisal? I thought you worked in real estate?




Quote:
What is meant by “Uniform” assessment rate?

A “Uniform” assessment rate means that all properties in the County, whether residential, commercial or industrial will be assessed by the department at the same ratio to market value. Currently, all assessment are set at 100% of 1998 base year value.

Delaware County PA


That's from the Delaware county office of the treasurer. Delaware county is using 1998 values for all properties, EXCEPT when there is new construction involved, the owner filed an appeal for reassessment, or significant renovations caused a reassessment of the property. You do not pay taxes based on the appraised value of a property. you do not pay taxes on the purchase price. You pay taxes on the assessed value which was set in 1998.


The reason taxes on properties have been increasing despite the county relying on figures from 1998, is because the RATE at which that value is taxed has increased. From the office of the treasurer:


Quote:
Market Value X Assessment Ratio = Assessment
Assessment X Millage = Taxes

Taxes went up because the Millage increased.


That rate varies from town to town and school district to school district, and has been going up largely because the state has reduced the portion it contributes to school districts, requiring local taxes to make up the difference. Someone was nice enough to link the rates earlier in the discussion- we already know what it is for Drexel Hill. 60.7400 Mills.


For the property I pulled off of Zillow, that's $125,800 x .0607 (roughly) = 7,636, which is what that property will owe this year, and slightly more than they owed for the last year Zillow has on file.

This is elementary, rudimentary tax policy. If you aren't aware of what a tax assessment is, or how tax rates can rise while the assessment does not, perhaps you should spend more time listening and less time commenting.

Last edited by Burger Fan; 05-02-2016 at 11:16 AM..
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Old 05-02-2016, 12:17 PM
 
Location: Dude...., I'm right here
1,232 posts, read 798,194 times
Reputation: 731
I doubt you understood what I said or you even understand what you are writing. Both Appraised and assessed values are important, and I know the difference.

My point is
1. Assessed value has remained flat since 1998
2. Millage has increased (and subsequently taxes are constantly rising)
3. Therefore assessed value remaining the same is useless
4. Home owner keeps paying more RE taxes every year.


And finally,
5. Assessed values did not change during housing downturn (while millage went up) and taxes went UP as appraised values went DOWN.

Does this make any sense to you? You are paying more taxes every year for an asset that is depreciating.

You're trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Buying a home in DelCo only makes sense to the County assessor and YOU.



Quote:
Originally Posted by Burger Fan View Post
The assessed values ARE based on 1998 figures, and a casual google search will show you this. I don't know why you cite the appraised value, because it's not relevant to taxation. Do you not understand the difference between an assessment and an appraisal? I thought you worked in real estate?

Delaware County PA


That's from the Delaware county office of the treasurer. Delaware county is using 1998 values for all properties, EXCEPT when there is new construction involved, the owner filed an appeal for reassessment, or significant renovations caused a reassessment of the property. You do not pay taxes based on the appraised value of a property. you do not pay taxes on the purchase price. You pay taxes on the assessed value which was set in 1998.


The reason taxes on properties have been increasing despite the county relying on figures from 1998, is because the RATE at which that value is taxed has increased. From the office of the treasurer:



Taxes went up because the Millage increased.


That rate varies from town to town and school district to school district, and has been going up largely because the state has reduced the portion it contributes to school districts, requiring local taxes to make up the difference. Someone was nice enough to link the rates earlier in the discussion- we already know what it is for Drexel Hill. 60.7400 Mills.


For the property I pulled off of Zillow, that's $125,800 x .0607 (roughly) = 7,636, which is what that property will owe this year, and slightly more than they owed for the last year Zillow has on file.

This is elementary, rudimentary tax policy. If you aren't aware of what a tax assessment is, or how tax rates can rise while the assessment does not, perhaps you should spend more time listening and less time commenting.
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Old 05-02-2016, 01:15 PM
 
37 posts, read 46,496 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Shikes View Post
Because I don't have a great grasp of property taxes, I assume this means 6.07% of appraised value of the house is the total I pay on property taxes. So a 200k house would pay out ~12k/year?

Yeah, that is very steep, but the math for what those types of houses cost in other halfway decent neighborhoods withing 25 mins of CC seems to still favor Drexel Hill.

Also, I spent hours driving through various parts of Drexel Hill last weekend and honestly there was nowhere I felt remotely unsafe until I hit Darby, then things started falling off the cliff. Is it just the South part that is considered unsafe and then whatever spillover you get from UD?


It's a millage rate so the calculation would be that for every $1000 the house is assessed at by the county/borough/township, you'll pay $60.74. If a house were assessed at $115,000, the math would be $115 x $60.74 = $6985 due in taxes. I did confuse the language 'assessed' and 'appraised' in the original post.

The local school districts do have a lawsuit pending against the state over their chronic under-funding. If they were to win, those taxes could change for the better. I wouldn't bet a house on this, but it's a nice thought that there are positive forces at work. And as someone else mentioned, they haven't done an assessment (I almost typed appraisal again) in several years so that the taxable value is much lower than the sales value. Ultimately, the Common Level Ratio in Delco is around 67%. This is like a cap on the assessment so that it stays near 67% of the home's value, plus or minus 15%. Your home could still assess above or below that 67%, that's an independent process, but you would have the legal right to challenge the assessed value back to something in that CLR range. The state changes these year to year.

That's all I know about the tax system up here, that, and it's bananas.

Truth be told, if you were looking for a low tax area, you'd either be A). So far out of the city that it wouldn't be worth your while, B). Way outside of what you could responsibly finance, or C). The mayor of sketchy street in a sketchy neighborhood, PA (Actually, you'd probably still pay banana taxes in sketch town, PA).

Edit: I wouldn't consider anything around Drexel Hill to be unsafe and you really have no good reason to traverse Darby from there.
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Old 05-02-2016, 11:45 PM
 
Location: SW Florida
4,613 posts, read 6,269,835 times
Reputation: 7809
Quote:
Edit: I wouldn't consider anything around Drexel Hill to be unsafe and you really have no good reason to traverse Darby from there.
Oh dear Lord. Doesn't anyone think the poster just forgot the "Upper"? The next sentence was:

Quote:
Is it just the South part that is considered unsafe and then whatever spillover you get from UD?
....so clearly he/she understood that it was Upper Darby.
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Old 05-03-2016, 08:42 AM
 
633 posts, read 491,681 times
Reputation: 1109
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ondoner View Post
I doubt you understood what I said or you even understand what you are writing. Both Appraised and assessed values are important, and I know the difference.

My point is
1. Assessed value has remained flat since 1998
2. Millage has increased (and subsequently taxes are constantly rising)
3. Therefore assessed value remaining the same is useless
4. Home owner keeps paying more RE taxes every year.


And finally,
5. Assessed values did not change during housing downturn (while millage went up) and taxes went UP as appraised values went DOWN.

Does this make any sense to you? You are paying more taxes every year for an asset that is depreciating.

You're trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Buying a home in DelCo only makes sense to the County assessor and YOU.
you can't be this dense.

The poster I responded to questioned whether if (s)he bought a house in upper darby, whether (s)he would be paying 6.07% of the appraised value on a 200K house, or 12K in taxes.

the answer is NO. Because millage and taxes rely on the assessed value, NOT the appraised value. (s)he would probably be paying closer to 7K, but this is impossible to determine precisely since we don't know what the assessed value of that hypothetical house is.

You chose to ignore this or didn't understand it, instead choosing to attack me over the 1998 values thing (which is absolutely correct), and THEN instead of admitting you had no idea what you were talking about, trying to explain this away as "well but taxes will always go up!"

You don't say? You may also be surprised to find out that the sun rises in the east, and water is wet. In which area of the state have taxes NOT increased over the last ten years? The original poster wasn't questioning whether taxes would ever rise because this is obvious of course they will, the question was in regards to total tax burden on a home which relies on assessed value and millage. Everything else is irrelevant.


I've already mentioned the reason why the inner delco suburbs have had consistently rising taxes- and this has to do with the state reducing it's portion of public education dollars year over year during the downturn, ESPECIALLY during the Corbett years, so YES, local property taxes rising during the downturn absolutely makes perfect sense if you were paying any attention. But again, it doesn't seem like you were because why would you? Your grasp of state politics is just as loose as your grasp of tax policy. As RVA-DELCO mentions above:


Quote:
The local school districts do have a lawsuit pending against the state over their chronic under-funding. If they were to win, those taxes could change for the better. I wouldn't bet a house on this, but it's a nice thought that there are positive forces at work.

A fix for this is in the works, but I wouldn't bank on this for the immediate future. And why on earth would you peg ALL of Delco as having "depreciating assets" as you do here?


Quote:
You're trying to fit square pegs into round holes. Buying a home in DelCo only makes sense to the County assessor and YOU.

The vast majority of the county is more than fine and housing is being sold at a premium since the recession ended. Delco has the 4th highest median income in the state behind Chesco, Montco, and Bucks, even WITH hellholes like Chester City and Darby dragging down the average. Only the inner ring suburbs are having this issue of spiking property taxes and lower property values, and some of this has to do with a handful of delco municipalities (UD/Yeadon/Folcroft/Darby/etc) taking a massive amount of section 8 residents. I wrote a VERY long and detailed thread on that topic some time ago.


you have a VERY nasty habit of feigning you know more than you do, then getting defensive when called on it, and this is not the first time this has happened. Do us all a favor, drop the front, and stick to commenting on things you have a clue on- because this isn't one of them.

Last edited by Burger Fan; 05-03-2016 at 09:10 AM..
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Old 05-03-2016, 08:53 AM
 
37 posts, read 46,496 times
Reputation: 29
Quote:
Originally Posted by Avalon08 View Post
Oh dear Lord. Doesn't anyone think the poster just forgot the "Upper"? The next sentence was:



....so clearly he/she understood that it was Upper Darby.
Darby is like a 10 minute drive south of Drexel Hill... and things do start to fall off a cliff.
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