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Old 05-04-2016, 12:56 PM
 
Location: Dude...., I'm right here
1,243 posts, read 799,046 times
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I never said "living in a neighborhood with your own people is the cause of lower socio-economic". Please re-read what I wrote.

If you disagree with the articles, feel free to share articles that support your view point. FYI, the articles are based on academic research and not bar talk, mindless chats.


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Quote:
Originally Posted by AbdiKony View Post
Well the fact there is a correlation is obvious. That does not prove living in a neighborhood with your own people is the cause of lower socio-economic status. Your articles just show correlation. well done
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Old 05-04-2016, 02:59 PM
 
54 posts, read 58,738 times
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Your argument isn't based upon the article.
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Old 05-04-2016, 03:26 PM
 
3,063 posts, read 2,637,611 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by maf763 View Post
Norristown, which is a small city and the county seat of Montgomery County.

According to this site:
34.7% White alone
33.6% Black alone
26.3% Hispanic
Yup... I live about 10 mins away from norristown. I'm black. I don't live in norristown though but close enough where I go frequently. It doesn't have a good reputation though(while people act strange when you mention you live in that area because they think it's the projects) and some parts are pretty ugly(actually looks like the projects in some parts lol not gonna lie). But honestly I don't mind going into norristown. My son goes to a private school in norristown because I wanted him to go to school with mostly black kids(not gonna front). I can't live in the norristown area though tbh, because it is ugly amongst other things--but you will def be around blacks and ricans and its in Montgomery county.

I grew up in an upper middle class white area my entire life and my dad was pretty affluent. Living in mostly white areas sort of screwed with how I identified and was challenging in its own way. The thing is these areas(the mostly white areas) in metros tend to look better, have better schools, and more opportunity... Not to mention like attracts like. It's tough because any black or minority will tell you that being in mostly white environments can be uncomfortable and f*** with your perception about yourself. A lot of times even the liberal ones don't truly get it. Being around people that look like you is more comfortable and reminds you that your "you" that you don't have to look and act differently from you and that it isn't necessarily bad that your you. The problem though is that education, quality of life, and so on just isn't that great in mostly "black" working class communities similar to norristown. That being said, despite not living in norristown, the majority of my friends that are educated, middle class and black live in some of the nicer parts of norristown and are all doing decently. Are they driving luxury cars with mini mansions, in senior level roles though? Nope...

I'm moving from this area in the summer--but if you have questions you can pm me.

If you like prettier areas that are more diverse there are some in Delaware county but the black percentage is closer to 18%-20%, still these areas are nicer looking, have better schools, closer to the city, and so on. Had I done my research and found a job closer to the city I probably would have moved to an area like Media, or Ardmore/narbeth, and if you are a single person I would reccomend an area closer to the city(Delaware county), same if you have kids and want them to have good education. But if you want a good black middle class area and you aren't single than norristown works.

Last edited by Faith2187; 05-04-2016 at 03:46 PM..
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Old 05-04-2016, 04:00 PM
 
Location: New York City
6,227 posts, read 5,562,899 times
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I think an easy way to end this thread is... there are very few towns/municipalities in the Philly region that have a predominantly black or Puerto Rican population that are good.

Norristown comes to mind and that is average.

Kennet Square (borough), that area is changing for the better, more resembling Glen Mills and West Chester these days, which are not really racially diverse.

And Coatsville, which IMO is pretty crappy.

And all burbs in Delco that are predominantly minority are not great areas, some downright terrible.
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Old 05-05-2016, 06:41 AM
 
10,273 posts, read 5,934,396 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ondoner View Post
I'm surprised you think otherwise so because this is rather obvious. Here are 2 good articles in the news this past week.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/graph...using/atlanta/

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2...-compares.html

For me, the take away message is that it is in the interest of minorities to integrate. Retreating into their own racial enclaves serves no good to their socio-economic status.
Strictly your POV. I grew up in a so-called integrated environment. But I still faced a certain level of racism
and other barriers(nevermind the sexism and homophobia)all through school and later on. Having sufficient self-esteem definitely helped me get past those issues.
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Old 05-05-2016, 06:48 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,521 posts, read 3,159,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
You mean become whitewashed? No thanks. I'd rather the systemic barriers of racial discrimination be removed instead, so that those communities can actually thrive and prosper. Integration is great, and I actually prefer living in diverse, cosmopolitan metros, but they would be much better if everyone had enclaves on the same playing field.
Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01 View Post
Strictly your POV. I grew up in a so-called integrated environment. But I still faced a certain level of racism
and other barriers(nevermind the sexism and homophobia)all through school and later on. Having sufficient self-esteem definitely helped me get past those issues.
Exactly. And funny how 1ondoner thinks it's okay for one group to live in their own communities, but not anyone else.
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Old 05-05-2016, 10:07 AM
 
Location: Dude...., I'm right here
1,243 posts, read 799,046 times
Reputation: 736
I'm curious to know where you got the impression that I said "it's okay for one group to live in their own communities".

I'm actually against self segregation. I said minorities should not restrict themselves in their own communities. It's not in their economic interest especially for African Americans.

There will always be discrimination in the world. Humans are prejudiced. Be it against people of color, religion, physical attributes (fat, short), disabilities, gender, sexual orientation, political affiliation, nationality, etc.

When I move into a place, the last thing on my mind is what my neighbors will think of me or treat. If someone has something against me, it's THEIR problem.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
Exactly. And funny how 1ondoner thinks it's okay for one group to live in their own communities, but not anyone else.
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Old 05-05-2016, 10:33 AM
 
Location: Baltimore, MD
3,521 posts, read 3,159,758 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ondoner View Post
I'm curious to know where you got the impression that I said "it's okay for one group to live in their own communities".

I'm actually against self segregation. I said minorities should not restrict themselves in their own communities. It's not in their economic interest especially for African Americans.

There will always be discrimination in the world. Humans are prejudiced. Be it against people of color, religion, physical attributes (fat, short), disabilities, gender, sexual orientation, political affiliation, nationality, etc.

When I move into a place, the last thing on my mind is what my neighbors will think of me or treat. If someone has something against me, it's THEIR problem.
Well, and I'm not trying to attack you personally, but your emphasis has been on self-segregation and minorities. There's been no call from you for white communities to integrate--the implication is that those are okay to stay put, and that minorities must conform and live in those communities--hence whitewashing. Why can't white folks integrate into minority communities?

You're right that there will always be discrimination and that humans are prejudiced. Where I disagree with you is that you feel self-segregation is wrong. Being around your own people is natural and not a bad thing. It makes dating and cultural celebration far less stressful, for example. My lament is that there are still tools in place that unfortunately keep many minority communities disadvantaged. I think it would be much better if we could actually recommend several areas in the Delaware Valley for the OP to be around people like them that aren't bad places. We would have no problem doing that for a white person.

Last edited by qworldorder; 05-05-2016 at 11:38 AM..
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Old 05-05-2016, 11:36 AM
 
633 posts, read 491,807 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BK_PHL_DEL View Post
The thing that bothers me about the NYT article is that they don't delve into how Asian students and communities fare; they were part of the main chart of data with Whites/Blacks/Hispanics. Asian communities have existed for decades (Chinatowns) and don't face the same magnitude of blight and crime and neglect as other minority communities. I don't think Asian communities should integrate; their socioeconomic status is strong enough by itself to maintain the community for a long time. This is a good local example of it:

PlanPhilly | Philadelphia Chinatown Development Corporation at 50
Apples and oranges really.

Asian communities tend to be made of 1st and 2nd generation immigrants- ESPECIALLY enclaves like Chinatown. (Legal) immigration is a very difficult, often expensive process. Those that make it through tend to be well connected, well educated, or well financed, or all three.

You'd be surprised to find that the MOST successful immigrant group in the modern era isn't Asian at all, but Nigerian.

Quote:
Perhaps most surprising is that, by many measures, the most-educated immigrant group in the U.S. isn't East Asians. It’s Africans.

According to Census data, more than 43 percent of African immigrants hold a bachelor’s degree or higher -- slightly more than immigrants from East Asia. Nigerian immigrants are especially educated, with almost two-thirds holding college degrees -- a significantly higher percentage even than Chinese or South Korean immigrants. African immigrants are also very likely to hold advanced degrees, many of which are earned at U.S. universities. By many measures, African immigrants are as far ahead of American whites in the educational achievement as whites are ahead of African-Americans.
http://www.bloombergview.com/article...cel-in-the-u-s-

Obviously Nigeria and Africa as a whole aren't some land of milk, honey, and superior culture and neither is Asia. (and including India, Pakistan, Afghanistan, Korea, China, Japan, and Malaysia into the same damn category of "Asian" is silly imo) We only happen to see the top .5% (if that) make it through the immigration process here. Once here, immigrants tend to cluster into enclaves and support each other strongly because of language and cultural barriers. This is true even of African immigrants vs. African-Americans, the two groups often do not get along AT ALL. Interestingly enough, the high performance of immigrants across the board tends to break down by the 3rd generation or so as the grandchildren of immigrants fully assimilate. There's a term for this, it's called the "Immigrant Paradox."


Quote:
The study found that first generation immigrant children often outperform second and third generation children in school, despite linguistic and cultural barriers putting them at an initial disadvantage. It also found that first generation immigrant children are less prone to juvenile delinquency and more likely to have a positive attitude toward their school and teachers.


“These are very unusual findings,” said Garcia Coll, the Robinson and Barstow Professor of Education, Psychology and Pediatrics at Brown. “In a time where immigrants are seen as detriments to our society and not making contributions, what this research is telling us is that the first generations come in with amazing energy and amazing capabilities of surmounting lack of education in parents, poverty, and language differences. The tragedy is that as some kids acculturate and become American, they start doing worse.”

http://schott.blogs.nytimes.com/2010...-paradox/?_r=0

White/(non immigrant) Black/Hispanic communities are a completely different scenario. You don't have the luxury of examining only the top 1 half of 1 percent. Black Americans in particular were "redlined" into poorly educated high crime high poverty communities with terrible infrastructure and prevented from moving out of them by statutes and restrictive covenants from reconstruction until at least the 1970s. That does a LOT of damage and is difficult to reverse.

That aside, non immigrant groups of all ethnicities tend to be more fully integrated into American society- and are thus less likely to have tightly knit communities that only buy/interact with each other.


hope that sheds some light on it.

Last edited by Burger Fan; 05-05-2016 at 11:56 AM..
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Old 05-05-2016, 12:30 PM
 
Location: Dude...., I'm right here
1,243 posts, read 799,046 times
Reputation: 736
You raise an important point regarding whites moving into areas with minorities. To me this is not the same or the opposite as minorities moving into Caucasian areas. Reason being, immigration/relocation is usually driven by economic benefits. So, if there is an economic benefit of doing so, then I'm absolutely in favor of it.

So should whites relocate to minorities areas? Yes. If it's a step up the economic ladder. My case for integration is solely based on economic advancement.

Regarding interracial dating, it's harder for 2 people from different cultures. However, this will become a less of an issue if the communities are well integrated.

Quote:
Originally Posted by qworldorder View Post
Well, and I'm not trying to attack you personally, but your emphasis has been on self-segregation and minorities. There's been no call from you for white communities to integrate--the implication is that those are okay to stay put, and that minorities must conform and live in those communities--hence whitewashing. Why can't white folks integrate into minority communities?

You're right that there will always be discrimination and that humans are prejudiced. Where I disagree with you is that you feel self-segregation is wrong. Being around your own people is natural and not a bad thing. It makes dating and cultural celebration far less stressful, for example. My lament is that there are still tools in place that unfortunately keep many minority communities disadvantaged. I think it would be much better if we could actually recommend several areas in the Delaware Valley for the OP to be around people like them that aren't bad places. We would have no problem doing that for a white person.
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