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Old 05-20-2016, 10:45 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
29,317 posts, read 27,534,677 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by mphilly View Post
Agree with this except for the fact that I'm not sure Obama's negatives are that high anymore. He's actually polling at about 50% approval consistently now.
Approval ratings for presidents usually go up as they approach lame duck status. I was thinking more about his disapproval ratings during his second term even as most economic indicators were improving. So what the economy generated 370,000 jobs this month? Obamacare's still killing jobs! What makes Sanders supporters think things are going to be any different for him?

Bernie Sanders is sort of like Daenerys in Game of Thrones. Only he has no dragons, no Unsullied, and no Dothraki. Daenerys stood on principle and almost got assassinated by the Sons of the Harpy (the modern-days Sons of the Harpy are Republicans and powerful special interests that would undoubtedly rip Sanders to shreds). Clinton is more like Tyrion. Sure, Grey Worm may be pissed about slavery in Mereen, but Tyrion understands that compromise is often required for the greater good.

 
Old 05-20-2016, 10:57 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,942 posts, read 10,824,387 times
Reputation: 8139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Well, that's sort of the difference between you and a Hispanic hotel worker in Nevada, right? For wealthier, White voters, many of these issues are more of an abstraction. For racial minorities who are much more vulnerable than you or I in virtually every way imaginable, these issues are much more concrete, and they don't have the luxury of taking principled stands. Cuts to social spending, for example, would have absolutely zero effect on my lifestyle, but they would undoubtedly thrust millions of children into poverty.
The privilege notion is rehashed a lot. I wouldn't say it is completely incorrect-what you say is the reality for many Bernie supporters that have the cushion to vote so principled and hide from the reality of a Trump Presidency but the script could be flipped too. Those that vote and accept the status quo and corporate stooges don't see the pressing need for massive change right now. Many of our most vulnerable citizens are not content accepting this status quo of such tiny incremental change-taking two steps forward and 1.5 steps back. The economic reality for minorities really did not improve under Obama in many ways and sadly I don't think Hillary will do much either. So, there are also those that have the priveledge to accept and be ok with "politics as usual".
 
Old 05-20-2016, 11:10 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
29,317 posts, read 27,534,677 times
Reputation: 12394
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
The privilege notion is rehashed a lot. I wouldn't say it is completely incorrect-what you say is the reality for many Bernie supporters that have the cushion to vote so principled and hide from the reality of a Trump Presidency but the script could be flipped too. Those that vote and accept that status quo and corporate stooges don't see the pressing need for massive change right now. Many of our most vulnerable citizens are not content accepting this status quo of such tiny incremental change-taking two steps forward and 1.5 steps back. The economic reality for minorities really did not improve under Obama in many ways and sadly I don't think Hillary will do much either. So, there are also those that have the priveledge to accept and be ok with "politics as usual".
The economic reality is not going to improve under Sanders either. If you want a Revolution, then don't start at the White House. Start by taking back state legislatures and Congressional seats from Republicans. Of course, that takes a sustained commitment that many of Sanders' supporters are simply not willing to give.

Putting Sanders in the White House is not going to alleviate poverty. The difference between him and Hillary is that he will get nothing accomplished since he's not even a Democrat whereas Hillary will get some things done. This idea that Sanders is going to get into office, break up the banks, pass single-payer healthcare, make college free, raise taxes on the middle class, and take money away from "da billionaires" is pure fantasy. I expect 19-year old college students being exposed to the writings of Rosa Luxemburg and Che Guevara for the first time to buy this crap, but not anyone who's spent any significant amount of time in the working world dealing with reality.

I bet most people on here couldn't get the janitorial staff at their place of work a pay raise. Or do something as simple as changing the dress code. Yet we expect one person to walk into office and basically overthrow the status quo over the objections of 535 Members of Congress and thousands and thousands of well-financed special interests. Okay. Got it.
 
Old 05-20-2016, 11:13 AM
 
10,279 posts, read 5,946,889 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
(IMO of course) I could never vote for someone who is so hawkish. I am 100% Anti-War and it is something I will no longer bend on, even if it means allowing an unknown to control the reigns. And I disagree with the notion that voting third party is giving away your vote to the D or R that wins-no, if Hillary doesn't win it will be due to the fact she has been running for Presidency since 2007 and yet still has horrible likeability/trust ratings. The DNC was naive to think that she would be a strong/exciting candidate-again.

At this point I feel Trump is mostly all talk and in reality is more "Center" or even "Left" than he is letting on now. I have faith that Americans would never allow him to do 99% of what he spouts, and it could even kickstart a real uprising, instead of this lulling complacency we see when we continuously choose "the lesser of two evils"-the Corporate Democrat, "politics as usual" like Obama and Clintons. But-I don't think he can win anyway. As Jill Stein often says, choosing the lesser of two evils is just creating a conduit for the greater evil to exist in the first place. It is a fear tactic mostly. "You have to accept endless war and financial corruption, because- look at that trainwreck over there".

Obama's hawkishness is actually what lost a chunk of my support for him, and Hillary is worse than Barack-who really was no better than Bush on that front.

I'm not saying nothing can change, but right now I don't think Trump even has any chance AT ALL to win PA so the point is mute.

Thanks for being respectful though!
Just curious. How do you envision a real uprising to play out? Oh, right you're hoping for a left-wing/pacifist uprising, it seems, with no violence.

We had a huge "uprising" starting in 1861, which took several years to come to a specific boiling point. Around 700,000 Americans(including civilians) were killed in that uprising.

I don't think very many Germans believed, in say, 1925, that in a few years, Adolph Hitler would become the legal Chancellor of Germany. So to think that Trump has no chance is a little foolish, IMO.
 
Old 05-20-2016, 11:25 AM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,942 posts, read 10,824,387 times
Reputation: 8139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
The economic reality is not going to improve under Sanders either. If you want a Revolution, then don't start at the White House. Start by taking back state legislatures and Congressional seats from Republicans. Of course, that takes a sustained commitment that many of Sanders' supporters are simply not willing to give.

Putting Sanders in the White House is not going to alleviate poverty. The difference between him and Hillary is that he will get nothing accomplished since he's not even a Democrat whereas Hillary will get some things done. This idea that Sanders is going to get into office, break up the banks, pass single-payer healthcare, make college free, raise taxes on the middle class, and take money away from "da billionaires" is pure fantasy. I expect 19-year old college students being exposed to the writings of Rosa Luxemburg and Che Guevara for the first time to buy this crap, but not anyone who's spent any significant amount of time in the working world dealing with reality.
I agree-but that's a different topic. But Hillary will certainly face plenty of obstruction-not sure why anyone would think otherwise, maybe even as badly as Obama has faced. Sanders actually has worked with plenty of people across the aisle and does have allies-being an "Independent" does have it's benefits.
 
Old 05-20-2016, 11:28 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
29,317 posts, read 27,534,677 times
Reputation: 12394
Oh, I could see Sanders' first 100 days now.

-He proposes the "Break Up the Big Banks and Raise Taxes on the Rich" Act. *Shockingly* it is downvoted by every single Republican and a large number of Democrats.

-Sanders makes his own nomination to SCOTUS after Republicans refuse to confirm Garland. Again, in a major surprise, Republicans block his nomination.

-Sanders supports the "Free College Tuition for Everyone" Act. The bill doesn't make it out of committee.

-Next, Sanders tries to beef up Obamacare. Republicans won't play ball and instead pass measure after to measure to defund it.

-Republicans keep saying "no" to everything Sanders proposes, and because they still maintain a majority in the House of Representatives, Sanders can't get anything done beyond renaming post offices.

-The public at large starts to see Sanders as weak and ineffective. Liberals feel dejected because none of Sanders' promises are materializing (where have we seen this before???)

-Disapproval ratings are through the roof. Congress, and Democrats in particular, get most of the blame. Midterm elections roll around and Republicans gain even more seats in both houses of Congress. More government shutdowns ensue. They refuse to fund anything Democrats support.

-Sanders runs for re-election, but doesn't have nearly the track record of success Obama has, and can't count on minority support the way Obama could. He loses his re-election bid in a landslide. Justice Ginsburg passes, Thomas steps down, and the new President packs the court with 41-year old strict constitutional conservatives. The VRA is gutted. Congress goes on a highway funding binge and slashes support for mass transit much to the chagrin of City-Data transit fanboys.
 
Old 05-20-2016, 11:40 AM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
29,317 posts, read 27,534,677 times
Reputation: 12394
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
I agree-but that's a different topic.
But it's not really a different topic. All of the energy of the Sanders campaign is largely misguided. They say they want the Revolution but really don't want to do any of the work a Revolution would require. They simply want to vote one day in November and then look for Sanders to work it all out. It doesn't work that way. If people want this super progressive agenda, then they need to get off their asses and start doing what Republicans have been doing for years.

Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
But Hillary will certainly face plenty of obstruction-not sure why anyone would think otherwise, maybe even as badly as Obama has faced. Sanders actually has worked with plenty of people across the aisle and does have allies-being an "Independent" does have it's benefits.
Hillary has been facing obstruction her entire career. She literally created the phrase "right wing attack machine."

I feel like you are living in LaLa Land if you feel like being an independent would have any benefits in Washington. If there's anything Obama learned in the past 8 years, it's that attempts at conciliation earn you nothing against people hell bent on your destruction. The White House doesn't need a dreamer. It needs a Frank and Clare Underwood. Appealing to people's better angels rarely gets the job done, but threatening to cut off funding for a pet project in their district does. I want someone who's good at winning battles, not someone good at making promises.
 
Old 05-20-2016, 12:00 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,942 posts, read 10,824,387 times
Reputation: 8139
Also, I find it a bit ironic if not hypocritical that in 2008 it was Clinton supporters that would not "fall in line" and get behind Obama at this point in the contest.

Recent polls show 72% of Sanders supporters would vote for Clinton over Trump. During the same time in 2008 only 60% of Clinton supporters said they would vote for Obama over McCain.

Why now are Bernie supporters being so heavily criticized and nearly insulted? People are just being impatient now and probably really wanted Hillary to be ordained nominee without any challenge or discourse.

Everything will be fine-not great, but fine. Bernie being in the race is good for long term political discourse.
 
Old 05-20-2016, 12:08 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
29,317 posts, read 27,534,677 times
Reputation: 12394
Quote:
Originally Posted by 2e1m5a View Post
Also, I find it a bit ironic if not hypocritical that in 2008 it was Clinton supporters that would not "fall in line" and get behind Obama at this point in the contest.
It is hypocritical. And Bernie supporters do need to fall in line just as Hillary's supporters did 8 years ago.

But politics is all about hypocrisy. As Frank Underwood said in House of Cards, "the Road to Power is paved with hypocrisy. And casualties."
 
Old 05-20-2016, 12:18 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia
11,942 posts, read 10,824,387 times
Reputation: 8139
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
It is hypocritical. And Bernie supporters do need to fall in line just as Hillary's supporters did 8 years ago.

But politics is all about hypocrisy. As Frank Underwood said in House of Cards, "the Road to Power is paved with hypocrisy. And casualties."
You are one of the few I've seen to at least acknowledge this hypocrisy.
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