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Old 05-20-2016, 03:36 PM
 
10,265 posts, read 5,931,280 times
Reputation: 3628

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Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Bernie supporters should rail against healthcare providers. They are the major reason healthcare costs so much since they're able to set their own prices. Of course, as we know, the healthcare industry is the largest employer in the Philadelphia region. So it would be interesting to see what impact changes to the industry would have on the local economy. The people working for these providers are part of the "corruption" too.
There's this. Isn't it true that a lot of working class people have ended up working in the pit/trading floor at the NYSE? Sanders wants to destroy their lives because, GoldmanSachs has given money to Hillary??

The Sanders crowd don't seem to get that Dodd-Frank has worked pretty well. Although what I think is needed is the re-birth of Glass-Steagal.

 
Old 05-20-2016, 03:52 PM
 
Location: Crooklyn, New York
29,296 posts, read 27,515,859 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01 View Post
There's this. Isn't it true that a lot of working class people have ended up working in the pit/trading floor at the NYSE?
No.

Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01 View Post
The Sanders crowd don't seem to get that Dodd-Frank has worked pretty well. Although what I think is needed is the re-birth of Glass-Steagal.
How would Glass-Steagal change anything?
 
Old 05-20-2016, 04:00 PM
 
10,265 posts, read 5,931,280 times
Reputation: 3628
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post



How would Glass-Steagal change anything?
Well, it's probably not do-able now to separate investment houses from commercial banks which is what the act was designed to do.
 
Old 05-20-2016, 06:04 PM
 
Location: Midwest
1,283 posts, read 1,880,905 times
Reputation: 970
Quote:
Originally Posted by BajanYankee View Post
Well, that's sort of the difference between you and a Hispanic hotel worker in Nevada, right? For wealthier, White voters, many of these issues are more of an abstraction. For racial minorities who are much more vulnerable than you or I in virtually every way imaginable, these issues are much more concrete, and they don't have the luxury of taking principled stands. Cuts to social spending, for example, would have absolutely zero effect on my lifestyle, but they would undoubtedly thrust millions of children into poverty.
There's also a certain privilege in being able to ignore the destructive role Hillary Clinton has played overseas. In sowing chaos in Iraq, Libya, Syria, Honduras - of being head of a State Department that fought Haitian worker attempts to raise their minimum wage. Of being able to ignore that she seemed to have no problem with Walmart's anti-worker policies while serving on the board of Walmart. It's not an argument without merit - but a lot of people who live okay lives but aren't overly-privileged do get tired of being called names at a certain point and it's no way to line up votes, especially when you keep putting up candidates that don't clearly back working class politics.

I was young enough and old enough when 9/11 happened that it played a pretty formative roll in how I formed my political opinions. Hillary Clinton played a leading role in trying to whip up war fervor among Democrats - and most of them went along with it at the time, even though plenty of us were watching in horror at what the Bush administration did. It's important to note she didn't just get fooled by the Bushes - the truth was already largely out there for anyone who cared to see it - and she lead the charge to whip up Democrats into blind patriotic war mongering. Now in retrospect she says she did it so that Bush would help her with by giving NYC rebuilding money. What great moral courage.

If I ever would have forgotten it, her brilliant "We came, we saw, he died" comment about Libya, a country that's now in utter chaos and which the state department used as a weapons smuggling front to aid Syrian rebels was a great reminder.

She clearly isn't interesting in my vote - so she won't have it. I got over the idea that the candidate with a D after their name owned my vote after 2004. I voted for Mr. Ellison for congress in 2006 as someone I thought was a principled leftish fellow (and although I've long left MN, he still seems to be that way - he was fairly outspoken back when the Congressional Black Caucus PAC endorsed Hillary that it was actually the PAC filled with lobbyists from banks and whatnot that endorsed her, and not the actual congresspeople). I was very happy when Obama beat Hillary in the 2008 primaries - he managed to lose me somewhere before election day, but MN also wasn't a swing state so who knows if he could have won my vote elsewhere.


On top of all that, Trump is the one who has the better anti-war platform, which speaks more to how hawkish Hillary is than anything about Trump. He's openly spoken of dismantling the worldwide American empire as it's a waste of money. Withdrawing from NATO as it no longer makes sense to be knee-jerk Anti-Russian (especially in respect to American deeds or misdeeds in Ukraine and Syria). The fact that thousands of American soldiers and hundreds of thousands of Arabs have died over a lie for the Iraq War. These are all things Trump has talked about - which has led a many rightwing war-mongers of the Bush era to declare their support openly for Hillary Clinton. It was also the largest segment of the GOP fighting against Trump.

By the way, my wife was a hotel worker up until about a year ago. I don't work in a hotel but work in hospitality and make not that much money for it. I know a lot of people who voted for Bernie, a lot who voted for Clinton, some who don't plan on voting for Clinton, some who are planning to vote for Trump even though they're not registered republicans - and perhaps more than anything, a lot of people who simply aren't going to vote because they don't believe in this system, or at least are pretty apathetic about it. Working people aren't monolithic, especially politically. Especially when the main messages of Hillary Clinton have been: no, you can't have health insurance reform that wasn't written by health insurance lobbyists; no you can't make that much perhour; no you can't have paid leave; no your jobs can't stay in America; and so on.


Quote:
Originally Posted by kyb01
Just curious. How do you envision a real uprising to play out? Oh, right you're hoping for a left-wing/pacifist uprising, it seems, with no violence.
I don't think Bernie is going to bring a political revolution. I don't think Bernie ever thought he would catch on like he did. The man is an old man who has been preaching the same message - which by the way has often been anti-Democratic party - for what like 50 some years? I've been aware of him for 15 years, and as far as I know most other people have not been aware of him. He was on a very short list of people who didn't go crazy after 9/11, and so it was pretty clear that he had principles, and so he was okay in my book. He's not especially pacifistic either, to tell the truth. We just live in a country where questioning the intelligence of dropping bombs for dubious reasons makes you a nut. But that's our role in history at this time - if we weren't doing it someone else would probably be, just as empires endlessly and senselessly kill stretching deep into the folds of history.

The anti-Bernie backlash has more to do with how off guard the Democratic party was taken, that there was such a substantial part of the party that was fed up with it. If he'd have been polling at 5% like everyone expected it, like Dennis Kucinich used to, it wouldn't matter at all. But depending on the state, anywhere from 30-70% of the people are going for him, and it drives the party crazy that. He never had a chance to win, yet people keep on voting for him - and they even believe what he says! The party had no idea, and they very much want it to stop. A convention is supposed to be like a high school pep rally - not where you have to honestly answer questions about what you believe and why you even want to be in power.

Honestly, Bernie probably affects change greater IMO by coming as close as possible to winning without winning. Being that the President can't do whatever they want, and a lot of the Democratic party is indeed opposed to a lot of what he wants to do.

To actually answer your question - political revolution happens when circumstances call for political revolution. Sometimes, but not always, a warning sign is a large segment of the population desiring one.

At the very least - and it's not a revolution - this election cycle has the possibility of drastically changing the two party duopoly as has only happened a few times in American history.

Last edited by FamousBlueRaincoat; 05-20-2016 at 06:15 PM..
 
Old 05-20-2016, 06:19 PM
 
Location: South Jersey
13,465 posts, read 7,422,826 times
Reputation: 4920
It would not be surprising *at all* if trump won PA. The media is picking up on the fact that he's not as toxic in the Philadelphia suburbs as expected. I could have told them that last summer. Trump is many times more electable in this part of the country than someone like Cruz.
 
Old 05-20-2016, 11:07 PM
 
105 posts, read 66,817 times
Reputation: 74
Quote:
Originally Posted by snj90 View Post
It would not be surprising *at all* if trump won PA. The media is picking up on the fact that he's not as toxic in the Philadelphia suburbs as expected. I could have told them that last summer. Trump is many times more electable in this part of the country than someone like Cruz.
It would be shocking to me and I follow demographics/voting trends very closely. I do agree that Cruz would have been persona non grata in Pennsylvania and would have done even worse than trump.
 
Old 05-21-2016, 08:19 AM
 
12,767 posts, read 28,903,003 times
Reputation: 7341
Interesting conversation, but as anyone can see, it's not one for this city board. Staying closed.
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