SEPTA Contingency Plan (Washington, Media, California: how much, car, station)

[BK_PHL_DEL]

Originally Posted by becca8377

if septa was solely a subway system, i think it would much better serve the area.

+1000

[AJNEOA]

Originally Posted by kyb01

cpomp has roots in the Philly area so his presence on this board may continue.

I agree with you about Septa. I've been riding pub trans in this area for decades, pre-dating Septa's existence. Except for occasional and rare(for me) breakdowns, my experience has been virtually uneventful. Strikes were painful though.

Yes, strikes scare me and luckily, I haven't had to deal with one yet!

My biggest complaint used to be the 23 route, because buses would get so piled up in North Philly, and with South Philly downstream, it really became unreliable. But they did completely fix that from my perspective. The only thing that would be better is to have some bus lanes in CC, and boot the small/limited parking lanes. That's a no-brainer IMO.

That being said, bus service in this city is pretty excellent from my perspective. And I also like the trolley lines in West Philly (and west of Broad in CC, which makes for excellent headways/rapid transit). There's so much available in the core of the city...one reason I didn't move to Manayunk when we were selecting a neighborhood. We wanted extra layers of convenience.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

That being said, bus service in this city is pretty excellent from my perspective. And I also like the trolley lines in West Philly (and west of Broad in CC, which makes for excellent headways/rapid transit). There's so much available in the core of the city...one reason I didn't move to Manayunk when we were selecting a neighborhood. We wanted extra layers of convenience.

An aside, I'm so old I remember when many bus routes were trolleys. Lol. I rode the rt 46, along 60th St in W. Philly, when it was a trolley, as a pre-school kid.

[AJNEOA]

Originally Posted by kyb01

An aside, I'm so old I remember when many bus routes were trolleys. Lol. I rode the rt 46, along 60th St in W. Philly, when it was a trolley, as a pre-school kid.

Cool stuff. From your perspective, what's more effective on these types of streets? Trolley or Bus?

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

Cool stuff. From your perspective, what's more effective on these types of streets? Trolley or Bus?

Trolleys!

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by AJNEOA

We'll miss you in this forum. I hope you and cpomp make it back to Philly at some point.

I personally see the latest disaster as a rare experience for SEPTA. It's SOOOOO underfunded, even after the large boost in funding from a few years ago, and I personally am a bit sensitive about SEPTA's quality because I think it's run quite well considering everything. I really love the RR system, but understand everyone's frustration. DC gets special treatment on the back of taxpayers while SEPTA/Philly get underserved. And even still, I think MarketStEl's post was spot-on about Metro. Either way, I hope you have a great experience.

Three years ago, when the American Public Transportation Association named SEPTA the "Best Large Transit System" in North America for 2012, I said to whoever would listen that SEPTA really deserved that award.

The reason why? Because they kept the system in running order using only duct tape and baling wire.

As far as funding is concerned, though, they have it worse in DC: there is no dedicated funding stream for operating assistance for WMATA as there is here (or in New Jersey or New York). WMATA basically relies on a pass-the-hat funding mechanism where they say to the two states, one Federal District, two counties in Maryland and three counties and two cities in Virginia (Virginia cities are legally independent of any county) where they operate service, "Okay, here's how big the hole in our budget's going to be this year. Now fill it."

Once again, this is no way to run a railroad. The awful operating culture (and the agency's longtime bias towards construction over maintenance on top of that) just adds insult to injury.

Originally Posted by kyb01

But you know... you may not realize this but this is a bit unfair because hasn't your Septa experience been exclusively regional rail pretty much? You didn't ride the BSL, MFL, NHSL or trolleys very often if at all, right?

When I was working and commuting, I can count on one hand the number of times the BSL train I took was late over years and years, for example.

What she said.

The Broad Street Subway is a lean, mean people-moving machine, a marvel of efficiency and punctuality (except when there's the occasional equipment issue, and even then, operations tend to recover quickly after the problem is cleared up). It's also one of only two four-track subways in North America not located in New York City (the other one is Chicago's Red Line from Howard Street to the Loop). It's a shame it cuts across rather than along the chief axis of traffic flow through Center City. (Of course, had the first Market Street subway-elevated line been built as originally planned, the trolley tunnel would have provided that "local" service east of City Hall too, freeing up space on the perennially packed El trains. But it wasn't for a combination of engineering and fiscal reasons.)

Originally Posted by Becca8377

Yes, it is frequently late, understaffed (trains canceled due to not having anyone to staff them), etc.

The understaffing is a serious issue, one SEPTA is well aware of.

Part of this problem stems from how SEPTA has historically operated the Railroad Division, and part from how railroad people regard SEPTA.

As I think some others have noted here, SEPTA got the railroad unloaded onto it - it wasn't originally created to operate commuter rail service in the region, just local and rapid transit. And it's made moves in the past (e.g., the "Fox Chase-Newtown High-Speed Line") that signaled to the railroad people that once it got the railroad, its intent was to operate it as glorified rapid transit. This is something that gets under the skin of railroaders. The upshot is that, even after a report in the wake of the fiery crash on that Fox Chase-Newtown line that brought that service to an abrupt end (and may have also contributed to the elimination of non-electrified service completely once the Commuter Tunnel, which is not equipped to handle diesel exhaust, opened) recommended SEPTA create a separate Railroad Division in its operating hierarchy, the railroaders have never quite trusted SEPTA to know how to run a railroad. Add to that pay scales that are lower than the average for operations of its type, and SEPTA Regional Rail is generally regarded among railroaders as the "farm team" where you learn the ropes before going off to work for a real commuter railroad like Metra, NJ Transit, Metro-North or the LIRR.

It seems to me that improving the pay scales for the railroad personnel would go a long way towards solving this. Ready for the fare hikes this would require?

Systems like in DC and Chicago are most (if not all) subway. If SEPTA was solely a subway system, I think it would much better serve the area. I have never had any issues with the BSL or MFL and think they are great, so yes I am talking strictly about the Regional Rail. But most track in the city are RR and not subway.

Philadelphia got only one-sixth of the rapid transit lines it sought to build. (I wrote a piece for Phillymag about where you can spot places where the lines and extensions that never got built would have branched off what's there (or, in one case, crosses the Wissahickon). Lack of money, the same thing that hamstrung the Philadelphia Rapid Transit Company when it built the nation's only privately-paid-for subway, doomed most of the ones that didn't get built.

Originally Posted by kyb01

Trolleys!

We'd have to re-educate the drivers on how to behave around them.

[jessemh431]

Is there really no hope of ever building more subway lines in Philly? With the increase in population, it would be really helpful and the city will (hopefully) only continue to grow. We see how a system reliant on mostly buses works out (SFMUNI). NYC built a new subway through heavily populated Manhattan, but settling with at least light rail or tram or something would be nice.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by jessemh431

Is there really no hope of ever building more subway lines in Philly? With the increase in population, it would be really helpful and the city will (hopefully) only continue to grow. We see how a system reliant on mostly buses works out (SFMUNI). NYC built a new subway through heavily populated Manhattan, but settling with at least light rail or tram or something would be nice.

I can see the BSL extension to the Navy Yard happening but nothing else. But even that is way off...just too much current infrastructure to fix and upgrade first.

The NY MTA has almost completed the 7 train extention to Hudson Yards. There's one more station to complete. The 2nd Ave subway took YEARS to start just as a comparison to what septa would have to face most likely.

It's all about money and political will.

[AJNEOA]

Originally Posted by kyb01

I can see the BSL extension to the Navy Yard happening but nothing else. But even that is way off...just too much current infrastructure to fix and upgrade first.

The NY MTA has almost completed the 7 train extention to Hudson Yards. There's one more station to complete. The 2nd Ave subway took YEARS to start just as a comparison to what septa would have to face most likely.

It's all about money and political will.

Yup. Labor AND materials are so expensive in the US. And with SEPTA getting very little funding, it will be hard for them to launch a capital funds project to that level. Navy Yard is an exception for sure.

And I'm with you in that current service and stations should be maintained before we expand. More than anything, I think SEPTA should embrace a S-Bahn type service for the RR lines, but that won't happen anytime soon.

[BK_PHL_DEL]

I was in Shanghai for work this past June and loved the subway there. They just dig up the ground and build the subway without giving a crap, which I wish we could do here in Philly/America.