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Old 07-09-2016, 03:35 PM
 
7,844 posts, read 14,707,294 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by BPP1999 View Post
I wonder if the "repairs aren't possible" is their way of getting rid of these Hyundai Rotem trains that no one really likes (that SEPTA's board wanted anyway). If they can recoup the lost $ and buy trains from someone else with a trusted reputation, such as Kawasaki (who provided SEPTA with the NHSL cars), maybe that's the best thing.

Having this new mess gives them a good excuse to push off much-needed restoration of service for another 4-5 years, which must make SEPTA's very anti-expansion Board happy.
Why doesn't anyone like the Hyundai trains?
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Old 07-09-2016, 07:40 PM
 
Location: Midwest
1,283 posts, read 1,881,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by jessemh431 View Post
Why doesn't anyone like the Hyundai trains?
The controversies and boondoggles leading up to their arrival.

There are fewer seats than the old trains - which was supposed to be cancelled out by having *more* of them. Although too many times my lines would run as only two cars even though there were three cars worth of people in them.

There are TV screens with constant video advertisements that are somehow made more annoying by the fact no sounds are made while "we buy any car!" is flashing at you trying to throw you into an epileptic fit. The train is constantly shouting at you telling you which station is next (and there's a station about every minute on most lines...so you get a NEXTSTOPISGERMANTOWNTHISSTOPGERMANTOWNNEXTSTOPISWA SHINGTONLANETHISSTOPISWASHINGTON LANE constant flow of useless information being broadcast to you). The buzzer that the conductor rings to let the engineer know to leave the station is extremely loud and jolting. All of which really ruin what used to be a good quiet ride car.

The doors are constantly getting stuck in cold weather - so you have to stay at the station until they can get them closed or open. This can cause major delays actually.

And they're just bad trains, with visible wear and tear appearing pretty quickly after they entered service.

Some rail-fan type people don't like them because they look like subway or LRT cars, with mid-car doorways and no vestibule. I liked this part though, as more doors meant shorter dwell times at stations.

Among other things.
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Old 07-10-2016, 11:46 PM
 
Location: NYC based - Used to Live in Philly - Transplant from Miami
2,306 posts, read 2,289,730 times
Reputation: 2599
Quote:
Originally Posted by FamousBlueRaincoat View Post
The controversies and boondoggles leading up to their arrival.


There are TV screens with constant video advertisements that are somehow made more annoying by the fact no sounds are made while "we buy any car!" is flashing at you trying to throw you into an epileptic fit. The train is constantly shouting at you telling you which station is next (and there's a station about every minute on most lines...so you get a NEXTSTOPISGERMANTOWNTHISSTOPGERMANTOWNNEXTSTOPISWA SHINGTONLANETHISSTOPISWASHINGTON LANE constant flow of useless information being broadcast to you). The buzzer that the conductor rings to let the engineer know to leave the station is extremely loud and jolting. All of which really ruin what used to be a good quiet ride car.
LOL! You made me laugh! It is so true!
But to be fair inn the older train, the conductors are the one who shouted.
So same thing.
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Old 07-11-2016, 12:33 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
6,216 posts, read 3,048,381 times
Reputation: 3932
I'm surprised I just now noticed this topic.

Before replying, I will begin by saying that for the most accurate reporting on this ongoing mess, you should be reading either me or Jason Laughlin at the Inky. Jim Saksa at Plan Philly offers some good detail stories on this as well.

Quote:
Originally Posted by FamousBlueRaincoat View Post
The controversies and boondoggles leading up to their arrival.

There are fewer seats than the old trains - which was supposed to be cancelled out by having *more* of them. Although too many times my lines would run as only two cars even though there were three cars worth of people in them.

There are TV screens with constant video advertisements that are somehow made more annoying by the fact no sounds are made while "we buy any car!" is flashing at you trying to throw you into an epileptic fit. The train is constantly shouting at you telling you which station is next (and there's a station about every minute on most lines...so you get a NEXTSTOPISGERMANTOWNTHISSTOPGERMANTOWNNEXTSTOPISWA SHINGTONLANETHISSTOPISWASHINGTON LANE constant flow of useless information being broadcast to you). The buzzer that the conductor rings to let the engineer know to leave the station is extremely loud and jolting. All of which really ruin what used to be a good quiet ride car.

The doors are constantly getting stuck in cold weather - so you have to stay at the station until they can get them closed or open. This can cause major delays actually.

And they're just bad trains, with visible wear and tear appearing pretty quickly after they entered service.

Some rail-fan type people don't like them because they look like subway or LRT cars, with mid-car doorways and no vestibule. I liked this part though, as more doors meant shorter dwell times at stations.

Among other things.
I would think you would appreciate that the "WeBuyAnyCar(dotcom)" jingle isn't blaring at you while you're on the train.

But as for those station stop announcements: They're not useless. First, there's this thing called the Americans with Disabilities Act. Perhaps you've noticed automated stop announcements on the rapid transit lines, or even the buses at selected stops? They're not only useful for the blind, they're useful reminders for people like me who have their heads buried in (their work|a book or books|their smartphones) while riding.

Perhaps you're able to tune out the announcements the conductors make on the SL IVs. (Those cars also have PA systems the conductors can use, but most simply open the vestibule doors and call out the stops.)

The one-quarter-of-the-way-in doors were installed to speed up boarding and alighting as well as to help make the cars lighter (they were overweight anyway). I don't like the double door with the center pillar, but I understand the door is configured this way to accommodate the trap and stairs that has to go on one of these doors.

The video screens are useless, as there are digital signs at either end of the car that also can display next-station information. But since SEPTA is trying to raise revenue from as many sources as it can besides fares and Harrisburg, the screens are there as a source of ad revenue.

As for the quality of the workmanship overall, the current El car fleet is as bad if not worse.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sammy215267 View Post
From my understanding and transit friends i was interacting with....the trucks will have to be replaced.

Kawasaki did bid the build the Silverliner V's ,i think they originally won. SEPTA last minute changed the specs of the contract and some other engineering along with FRA compliant rules, politics was apart of the contracts sadly, which i also think screwed SEPTA in a way also. SEPTA Changed the request for proposal and Kawasaki's price tag increased by $20+ Million dollars and they received the highest rating across the board, but back to the FRA Rule SEPTA i believe had to choose the lowest bidder, and ROTEM was not the highest, but GOOD ENOUGH. Kawasaki sued SEPTA, and currently i don't think Kawasaki will build anything for SEPTA ever.

Rotem at one point in time i think after the SEPTA order wanted out of the US Market, they built for MBTA, CalTrain or someone else they have been having problems. I think they also want the next contract for the SEPTA MULTI-LEVEL ORDER.
I feel like in the back of my head SEPTA is giving a side eye.
Not quite right.

Kawasaki did bid on the Silverliner V production contract, but the consortium led by Hyundai Rotem (which included a Japanese company) submitted the lowest bid, which SETPTA chose despite the fact that the H-R-led team's design got the lowest rating from SEPTA's techinical staff. Kawasaki then sued SEPTA on the grounds that the winning bidder didn't have prior experience building rail cars for the U.S. market. (This was also a requirement listed in the bid request.) SEPTA responded to the suit by rescinding the award and issuing a new request for bids with that requirement removed. H-R submitted the low bid again, and SEPTA gave it to them again.

Rotem was using this contract to get a foothold in the U.S. market. It never made any move to exit the market. Its second car order, for the MBTA, was also plagued by technical problems and delays; the latter got so bad that the T threatened to cancel the order.

Its third car order was for Denver, which got cars identical to the Silverliner Vs. The Denver Regional Transportation District is giving their cars a once-over now.

Quote:
Originally Posted by BPP1999 View Post
I wonder if the "repairs aren't possible" is their way of getting rid of these Hyundai Rotem trains that no one really likes (that SEPTA's board wanted anyway). If they can recoup the lost $ and buy trains from someone else with a trusted reputation, such as Kawasaki (who provided SEPTA with the NHSL cars), maybe that's the best thing.

Having this new mess gives them a good excuse to push off much-needed restoration of service for another 4-5 years, which must make SEPTA's very anti-expansion Board happy.
Nope. The NBC10 story was very badly worded, as your post unintentionally makes clear.

The cars themselves will remain in service. What's most likely to happen is that either new equalizer bars or new trucks will have to be made.

And I don't know where you get the idea the the SEPTA Board is "anti-expansion." The agency just put all talk of new lines or extensions on hold after the Act 44 funding mechanism collapsed. With state funding cut by half, it wouldn't have been wise to talk of new service when the existing service was in jeopardy. SEPTA basically held operating service harmless while slashing maintenance; it then developed that 10-year death-by-starvation service plan that proved effective in lighting a fire under then-Gov. Corbett to finally fix the problem that had been festering for his entire term in office. Once that got fixed and sufficient funding (though still not really all that's needed) was flowing again, SEPTA started tackling the repair backlog and talking about added rail service, most notably the BSL Navy Yard extension and the Route 100 spur to King of Prussia.

What do you want to see them build that they're not talking about?

Quote:
Originally Posted by AJNEOA View Post
Not one bit surprising. From an engineering perspective, this is a disaster. If it's not a material-related issue (aka wrong metal or low quality metal), it may be a design issue (aka weight cannot be tolerated at the dimensions/build). If that's the case, bad design may not be fixable.

I believe SEPTA will figure out something to tide people over (borrow train cars?), but the budget impacts, lawsuits, etc. will be terrible.
Knueppel noted that this design has been in use for many years without problems like this. We trust their current round of tests will be able to figure out exactly what caused these fractures.
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Old 07-11-2016, 05:30 AM
 
Location: Midwest
1,283 posts, read 1,881,190 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post

But as for those station stop announcements: They're not useless. First, there's this thing called the Americans with Disabilities Act. Perhaps you've noticed automated stop announcements on the rapid transit lines, or even the buses at selected stops? They're not only useful for the blind, they're useful reminders for people like me who have their heads buried in (their work|a book or books|their smartphones) while riding.

.

Well it's a tongue in cheek observation about something that there's nothing you can do about, but I know I'm not the only one that's annoyed by it. The express 8th and Market Broad Street Line I usually take stops every 10-20 blocks at which point there is an announcement. Bus announcements are few and far between except in Center City (transfer points or major points of interest). The Chestnut Hill East and West are stopping as little as every 3 city blocks - which has one message feeding right into the next. Couple that with the general quietness of the regional rail as opposed to the constant background noise of the subway or bus, and it can just be a little overbearing compared to the 4's.

There also seems to be some kind of volume control (or malfunction), as sometimes the announcements are silent, sometime they are regular loud, and sometimes if you are right under the speaker, they are much, much too loud to the point that there have been insurrections on trains.

By the way, in addition to reading or being on my phone, I often sleep a lot on the train. Have yet to miss a stop in 4 years of taking it, knock on wood. Yet to the people trying to get to Trenton almost daily, they seem totally unphased getting on a train which is yelling at them "this is the chestnut hill west line, making all stops to chestnut hill west". Part of this, for abled people anyway, is whether or not you are willing to put forth the minimal effort required to make it home.
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Old 07-11-2016, 05:44 AM
 
10,273 posts, read 5,934,396 times
Reputation: 3628
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post

As for the quality of the workmanship overall, the current El car fleet is as bad if not worse.



Explain this. Relay some details about it. They've been in operation for about 15 years. Except for the seat changes, what else is going on about them?
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Old 07-11-2016, 05:52 AM
 
5,351 posts, read 5,570,613 times
Reputation: 3615
SEPTA: New commuter schedule promises relief thanks to leased cars from other transit agencies
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Old 07-11-2016, 06:05 AM
 
5,351 posts, read 5,570,613 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post



Knueppel noted that this design has been in use for many years without problems like this. We trust their current round of tests will be able to figure out exactly what caused these fractures.
I'm sure they'll figure out what the problem is. The question is around the fix. Bad design can lead to stress fractures after even years of use. I hope it's an easy fix, but we'll see.
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Old 07-11-2016, 08:38 AM
 
10,273 posts, read 5,934,396 times
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Also to those it may concern septa has started to transition senior rider access to the new system needing a photo id transit card. Go to Septa headquarters on Market St. in CC to get your picture taken. You will get your new card mailed to you.

In the meantime, continue to use your paper(yellow or blue) cards or your PA id to go through turnstyles.
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Old 07-11-2016, 02:54 PM
 
Location: Montco PA
2,065 posts, read 4,290,092 times
Reputation: 1478
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Nope. The NBC10 story was very badly worded, as your post unintentionally makes clear.

The cars themselves will remain in service. What's most likely to happen is that either new equalizer bars or new trucks will have to be made.

And I don't know where you get the idea the the SEPTA Board is "anti-expansion." The agency just put all talk of new lines or extensions on hold after the Act 44 funding mechanism collapsed. With state funding cut by half, it wouldn't have been wise to talk of new service when the existing service was in jeopardy. SEPTA basically held operating service harmless while slashing maintenance; it then developed that 10-year death-by-starvation service plan that proved effective in lighting a fire under then-Gov. Corbett to finally fix the problem that had been festering for his entire term in office. Once that got fixed and sufficient funding (though still not really all that's needed) was flowing again, SEPTA started tackling the repair backlog and talking about added rail service, most notably the BSL Navy Yard extension and the Route 100 spur to King of Prussia.

What do you want to see them build that they're not talking about?
1 - BSL to the Navy Yard (which is very expensive but worth it IMO) - they are talking about it, but are they seriously talking about it?

2 - 100 spur to KOP - great plan, but absurdly expensive and will not add a huge number of riders.

For $1B, they could procure about 20 dual-mode locomotives, re-hab old stations and expand parking, and then restore service back to Pottstown and Quakertown, adding many thousands of riders and transforming the 422 and 309 corridors. Other agencies would be doing this already, but SEPTA will instead list 10 B.S. reasons why expansion like this can't happen, then over-estimate the cost of restoration, and under-estimate future ridership, in an attempt to sandbag/kill the whole idea. No other transit agency in this country has managed decline and service cuts as much as SEPTA.

3 - West Chester - why does it cost $90M to restore service to Wawa? (see above for the reason: over-estimate cost, under-estimate ridership, sandbag/stall project).

Why are they insisting on building a parking garage in Wawa PA for tens of millions of dollars when they could instead restore the line further west to the walkable communities that are patiently waiting for a return of service, most notably the Borough of West Chester?

I understand that they were underfunded for quite some time but that should not have earned them the nickname "Society to Eliminate Public Transportation Altogether." In a few years, when the worst of the backlog of state of good repair projects is complete, they sure better start getting serious on service restoration which is long overdue. It would be nice to start catching up to the rest of the country, where transit systems have been designing and building brand new service for the last three decades.

Last edited by BPP1999; 07-11-2016 at 03:02 PM..
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