Why doesn't SEPTA run 24/7 but Patco does? (York, Berlin: buses, rail)

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by koolski71

DarkLoFan means why doesn't the subway service run 24 hours, which it doesn't, except on the weekends. This question has been brought up before. SEPTA stopped 24 hour subway service in 1991 mainly because of crime which i thought was shortsighted. I mean, they have had transit cops since the early-to-mid 80's....like, huh?!?

No, it was not only because of crime. They stopped 24 hr service also because of the horrific derailment just west of 30th St station on the EL. People died. The NTSB probably forced them to review/ inspect cars during that nightly 5 hr window.

How often do you see transit cops? I swear, I can ride for weeks at a time and never see one.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by timeEd32

Considering the budget issues most public transit organizations have and the maintenance issues 24/7 service creates it's not surprising most cities don't have it. Plus the advent of Uber/Lyft has made it less of an issue.

Is there 24/7 bus service in Philly?

Not exactly. There is night owl bus service which duplicates the routes of the BSL and MFL. In other words those buses run between the hours 12:30am to 5am weekdays when the BSL and MFL are down. Also trolley routes, 10,11,13,34,36, run 24hrs.

[MB1562]

Originally Posted by kyb01

How often do you see transit cops? I swear, I can ride for weeks at a time and never see one.

I see them almost every day on the El and the stations. Less so on the Broad Street Line, now that I think of it. I've never once seen them on the trollies or trolly stations.

[kyb01]

Originally Posted by MB1562

I see them almost every day on the El and the stations. Less so on the Broad Street Line, now that I think of it. I've never once seen them on the trollies or trolly stations.

Okay that explains it. Most of my trips are on the BSL. They do show up when kids get out of school on the BSL.

[koolski71]

Originally Posted by kyb01

No, it was not only because of crime. They stopped 24 hr service also because of the horrific derailment just west of 30th St station on the EL. People died. The NTSB probably forced them to review/ inspect cars during that nightly 5 hr window.

How often do you see transit cops? I swear, I can ride for weeks at a time and never see one.

You're right. I forgot about that March '90 accident. I think 3 people died including a teenage boy coming from school if I'm not mistaken? Maybe for budget reasons if Septa wasn't forced to run those old crappy Budd cars (not the main reason of course) at that time maybe that incident would've been avoided. But that's water under the bridge now.

But i'll tell you this. If the subway/elevated system had been built out to it fullest potential, it would have been closer to 24 hour service than not in my estimation.

I think the transit cops were probably more prevalent because of higher crime in the late 80's through maybe the mid 90's than now. That's probably opening up another whole can of worms.

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by rotodome

Subway systems that run 24/7 are not really the norm - in the Northeast or elsewhere on earth. I don't know why SEPTA always gets this criticism.
The list of cities on earth with full 24/7 subway service is a very short one. NYC & Berlin. I think that's it.

New York and Chicago in North America. Berlin and now London in Europe.

Transport for London launched "Night Tube" service on select Underground lines earlier this year to much fanfare. The reason given? London's become a 24-hour city. (We like to complain about how early bars close here; British pubs had an earlier last call for many years.)

Originally Posted by kyb01

No, it was not only because of crime. They stopped 24 hr service also because of the horrific derailment just west of 30th St station on the EL. People died. The NTSB probably forced them to review/ inspect cars during that nightly 5 hr window.

That Market-Frankford Line crash occurred in 1993. (I was on a trolley on the way to work the morning it happened. It's the only time I've ever walked through a subway tunnel between stations.)

SEPTA stopped 24-hour rapid transit service three years earlier. Cost and safety were the two main reasons.

Originally Posted by kyb01

Not exactly. There is night owl bus service which duplicates the routes of the BSL and MFL. In other words those buses run between the hours 12:30am to 5am weekdays when the BSL and MFL are down. Also trolley routes, 10,11,13,34,36, run 24hrs.

Only three of the five routes that operate in the trolley subway run 24/7: the 10, the 13 and the 36. Surface trolley Route 15 also runs all night.

19 bus routes - 16 in the city, one in the 'burbs (109), and two that straddle the two (37 and 108) - have 24/7 service. SEPTA has a set of service standards that (I believe) stipulate that no area served by an "urban" bus route should be more than one mile away from a 24/7 bus line. (Route 9, the main route through Roxborough, is considered a "suburban" route by SEPTA in terms of its operating characteristics. I think some of the routes in the Far Northeast also fall on that side of the divide. Those are the two parts of the city that largely lack round-the-clock service. Route 18 had it for a while, but the Federal grant that funded the extra service ran out and SEPTA dropped the one run that made it 24/7. It's now a 22.5/7 route.)

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by MarketStEl

New York and Chicago in North America. Berlin and now London in Europe.

Transport for London launched "Night Tube" service on select Underground lines earlier this year to much fanfare. The reason given? London's become a 24-hour city. (We like to complain about how early bars close here; British pubs had an earlier last call for many years.)

Chicago subway is only 24 hours on 2 of 8 lines, and London's 24 hour service is still only partial. I wasn't considering that to be true 24/7 subway service.
In any case, point was just that it's not unreasonable for SEPTA to not offer 24/7 service, because almost nowhere has it.

[rotodome]

Originally Posted by kidphilly

weekends are 24/7 currently

You mean 24, not 24/7!

[MarketStEl]

Originally Posted by koolski71

You're right. I forgot about that March '90 accident. I think 3 people died including a teenage boy coming from school if I'm not mistaken? Maybe for budget reasons if Septa wasn't forced to run those old crappy Budd cars (not the main reason of course) at that time maybe that incident would've been avoided. But that's water under the bridge now.

But i'll tell you this. If the subway/elevated system had been built out to it fullest potential, it would have been closer to 24 hour service than not in my estimation.

I think the transit cops were probably more prevalent because of higher crime in the late 80's through maybe the mid 90's than now. That's probably opening up another whole can of worms.

Three people? I think that figure's too low by a factor of about 10. It took place during the morning rush hour.

Budget reasons? Those cars were 32 years old at the time of the accident. That's not that old in terms of railcar service; it's about the point where many transit systems overhaul cars to extend their service life. (The B-IV Broad Street fleet entered service in 1982, and overhaul of the cars began in 2014.) But they may not have been well maintained, and in terms of passenger comfort, they were obsolete (they were built just as air conditioning was becoming a feature on urban passenger rail cars; in fact, one car in that 1961 Budd fleet WAS air-conditioned). Those two factors along with the crash probably hastened their replacement. They replaced cars that had been in service for 54 years (the original 1907 Market Street el fleet) and 38 years (the 1922 Frankford Elevated cars) when they came on line.

BTW, speaking of age of railcars, the oldest cars now running on PATCO have been running since Opening Day, 1969. That makes them 47. They're just now being rebuilt. They were Budd products too. (A later car order was built by Vickers Canada in 1982 according to the Budd design.)

[tan clutch]

So why is PATCO 24/7 then, given that it is relatively unusual for a rail line to be 24/7?

I mean, I'm glad that it is--I'm glad there is no hour too late (or too early) for me to find a train home. But I imagine the non-weekend overnight trains are pretty empty most of the time.