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I would think that some of the Europeans & the big American grocers would go into the inner city, as grocery chains do in Europe.
My guess is that the effect of the Lidl openings will start to show by this time next year. It will probably be blatant by the next year. A few years ago, Walmart brought a west coast concept to North Carolina, Walmart Neighborhood Market, to test it on the east coast. That seems to be in a holding pattern, awaiting Lidl. That's something else that could spread up to Philadelphia. The question is who will be hit & who will thrive? Everyone needs groceries. Will Produce Junction thrive, or be hit?
It appears that the first Lidls in the Philadelphia market will be in the outer edges. They have a 6 year plan, starting with three distribution centers, in NC, VA, & Cecil County Maryland, which will, at least initially, serve Philadelphia & South Jersey. Lidl's game plan is to include aiming at Trader Joe's, which is owned by Aldi Nord. The first 100 stores will be used for fine tuning, while they expand to 200.
They'll be baking bread in the Lidl stores. Between Aldi & Lidl, this will result in store closures of weak stores in weak chains. I would think that Kroger & Publix are sitting back, waiting for some of those stores. That gets everybody up to the Philadelphia market where Ahold has failed to figure out how to deal with confusion because of the overlap of Giant of Carlisle & Giant of Landover.
As for that last, I think Ahold took care of that with the closing of all remaining "Super G" supermarkets in the tri-state metropolitan region; that was the name under which Giant (Landover) operated when Ahold moved that chain into the area because of the presence of Giant (Carlisle). After Ahold acquired the latter, it pulled its Landover-based division out of the market completely.
Publix I could see entering this market, given its northward march up the coast, but Kroger? It would be leapfrogging over territory in which it has no presence at all and probably won't in order to do that. Unless what you have in mind is an expansion of its Harris Teeter division's footprint northward from Washington.
As for the weak chains, which ones do you see falling into that category here? I think one reason Walmart hasn't attempted to launch standalone supermarkets in this region is because ShopRite is actually a very formidable competitor to Walmart on price in the grocery business hereabouts.
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl
As for that last, I think Ahold took care of that with the closing of all remaining "Super G" supermarkets in the tri-state metropolitan region; that was the name under which Giant (Landover) operated when Ahold moved that chain into the area because of the presence of Giant (Carlisle). After Ahold acquired the latter, it pulled its Landover-based division out of the market completely.
Publix I could see entering this market, given its northward march up the coast, but Kroger? It would be leapfrogging over territory in which it has no presence at all and probably won't in order to do that. Unless what you have in mind is an expansion of its Harris Teeter division's footprint northward from Washington.
As for the weak chains, which ones do you see falling into that category here? I think one reason Walmart hasn't attempted to launch standalone supermarkets in this region is because ShopRite is actually a very formidable competitor to Walmart on price in the grocery business hereabouts.
Kroger's Harris Teeter division gets into Delaware. It's on the doorstep, but I'm not so sure that it would fly in the Philadelphia market. They do, however, have a presence. They own Litmans. When A&P put itself up for sale, Kroger did try to enter into talks with them. Apparently, it went nowhere.
Ahold Delhaize has a problem called Food Lion. Apparently, Food Lions north of DC have to close as part of the agreement involved with the merger. The last I knew, the Super G on Concord Pike in Delaware was turned into a Giant of Landover. Ahold tried bringing Stop & Shop into South Jersey, after the Super G failure but that was a bigger failure. With the demise of Pathmark, Ahold could have successfully gone into Philadelphia & South Jersey, with regular Giant of Landover stores, but Giant of Carlisle is in the market. The Landover division is the better division for the city & South Jersey.
Weaker chains are mostly south of the Philadelphia market. Closures might speed up the northern march of Publix, or divert Kroger's attention.
Food Lion's Bottom Dollar fiasco has given Aldi a much better presence in the Philadelphia market. Lidl is very strategic in choosing locations. Their aim is as much at Trader Joe's & Walmart as at the regular Aldis. The Trader Joe's people may regret making themselves so scarce on the east coast.
Kroger's Harris Teeter division gets into Delaware. It's on the doorstep, but I'm not so sure that it would fly in the Philadelphia market. They do, however, have a presence. They own Litmans. When A&P put itself up for sale, Kroger did try to enter into talks with them. Apparently, it went nowhere.
Hmmm. Ice and ice cream under one roof! I imagine that if it owns a chain of jewelry stores, Kroger must have some other non-grocery divisions. Do tell.
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Ahold Delhaize has a problem called Food Lion.
This is one of the things that mystifies me about that merger and the Belgian-based half of the merged company.
Royal Ahold NV seems to have had general success operating in the United States while Delhaize seems to me to be unable to win for losing. I consider the Bottom Dollar Food flop a tragedy because that chain upped the ante for everyone operating in the deep-discount, no-frills, limited-selection sector: Aldi US got lots better after BD launched IMO. (Which may be attributing too much to Bottom Dollar, which had stores in only three states while Aldi operates nationwide.)
I wonder if things are different across the pond? Delhaize certainly looks like a millstone Ahold draped around its own neck over on this side of the Atlantic.
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With the demise of Pathmark, Ahold could have successfully gone into Philadelphia & South Jersey, with regular Giant of Landover stores, but Giant of Carlisle is in the market. The Landover division is the better division for the city & South Jersey.
Having been in stores of both Giants, I understand your argument here. Actually, it's my impression that the supermarket chains operating in the Washington/Baltimore market (I'm posting this while visiting a friend in DC) have flashier stores (except for Safeway, whose stores strike me as somewhat dated, or at least the one on Capitol Hill is) with a greater variety and selection of products and services. They also seem to be more willing to fit their stores into urban footprints, with parking in garages below the stores (the DC height limit makes above-ground garages less desirable, as builders would rather put residents on those upper floors). My guess, though, is that all this works in DC only because the Washington region is a good bit more affluent than the Philadelphia region. I think there are only a few parts of the city where you could make a go of it with a large supermarket in a building with parking above or below it, and most of those places already have at least one such supermarket (that's smaller than the typical modern store, the Whole Foods on the Parkway being the notable exception to this rule).
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Weaker chains are mostly south of the Philadelphia market. Closures might speed up the northern march of Publix, or divert Kroger's attention.
Food Lion's Bottom Dollar fiasco has given Aldi a much better presence in the Philadelphia market. Lidl is very strategic in choosing locations. Their aim is as much at Trader Joe's & Walmart as at the regular Aldis. The Trader Joe's people may regret making themselves so scarce on the east coast.
Something I note in all this is that at least in the eyes of the supermarket chains, New Castle County is as close to Washington as it is to Philadelphia. That may be because Lower Delaware has stronger ties to the former than the latter, DE 1 notwithstanding, and New Castle is the state's most populous and only truly urbanized county (though I may have to revise that assessment with all the development along the coast in Sussex ). After Safeway finished wrecking Genuardi's, it closed or sold all the former Genuardi's locations in Pennsylvania and New Jersey but rebadged those in the Wilmington 'burbs as Safeways.
As for that last, I think Ahold took care of that with the closing of all remaining "Super G" supermarkets in the tri-state metropolitan region; that was the name under which Giant (Landover) operated when Ahold moved that chain into the area because of the presence of Giant (Carlisle). After Ahold acquired the latter, it pulled its Landover-based division out of the market completely.
Publix I could see entering this market, given its northward march up the coast, but Kroger? It would be leapfrogging over territory in which it has no presence at all and probably won't in order to do that. Unless what you have in mind is an expansion of its Harris Teeter division's footprint northward from Washington.
As for the weak chains, which ones do you see falling into that category here? I think one reason Walmart hasn't attempted to launch standalone supermarkets in this region is because ShopRite is actually a very formidable competitor to Walmart on price in the grocery business hereabouts.
Publix entering Philadelphia could be possible. Publix would need to establish a new retail division; increase store count in and expand in Virginia, the District of Columbia, Maryland, and Delaware; and add a distribution center.
Kroger could enter Philadelphia through Harris Teeter. Harris Teeter has stores in Maryland and Delaware.
Kroger's Harris Teeter division gets into Delaware. It's on the doorstep, but I'm not so sure that it would fly in the Philadelphia market. They do, however, have a presence. They own Litmans. When A&P put itself up for sale, Kroger did try to enter into talks with them. Apparently, it went nowhere.
Ahold Delhaize has a problem called Food Lion. Apparently, Food Lions north of DC have to close as part of the agreement involved with the merger. The last I knew, the Super G on Concord Pike in Delaware was turned into a Giant of Landover. Ahold tried bringing Stop & Shop into South Jersey, after the Super G failure but that was a bigger failure. With the demise of Pathmark, Ahold could have successfully gone into Philadelphia & South Jersey, with regular Giant of Landover stores, but Giant of Carlisle is in the market. The Landover division is the better division for the city & South Jersey.
Weaker chains are mostly south of the Philadelphia market. Closures might speed up the northern march of Publix, or divert Kroger's attention.
Food Lion's Bottom Dollar fiasco has given Aldi a much better presence in the Philadelphia market. Lidl is very strategic in choosing locations. Their aim is as much at Trader Joe's & Walmart as at the regular Aldis. The Trader Joe's people may regret making themselves so scarce on the east coast.
Harris Teeter could do well in Philadelphia. If it can open a quantity of quality stores, it could position itself to create another region specific for its Pennsylvania stores.
Harris Teeter could do well in Philadelphia. If it can open a quantity of quality stores, it could position itself to create another region specific for its Pennsylvania stores.
I agree with you but note that Philadelphians have historically been as price-conscious as they are quality-conscious, if not more.
Acme's position as the overwhelmingly dominant chain in the Philadelphia market began to erode as competitors undercut them on price - not just ShopRite but also Pathmark (which, by the way, was the chain formed when the then-largest owner of stores in the Wakefern cooperative decided to go it alone in the early 1970s).
Genuardi's rise proved there is a sizable demand for quality in this market too, but the chain still had to be price-competitive with its regional rivals.
Wegmans learned this lesson in its home market of Rochester, N.Y., and has applied it aggressively everywhere it's expanded.
My impression is that Harris Teeter's not quite there yet, which may not be that big a deal in uber-affluent Washington but could cause problems for it if/when it moves into Greater Philadelphia.
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl
Hmmm. Ice and ice cream under one roof! I imagine that if it owns a chain of jewelry stores, Kroger must have some other non-grocery divisions. Do tell.
This is one of the things that mystifies me about that merger and the Belgian-based half of the merged company.
Royal Ahold NV seems to have had general success operating in the United States while Delhaize seems to me to be unable to win for losing. I consider the Bottom Dollar Food flop a tragedy because that chain upped the ante for everyone operating in the deep-discount, no-frills, limited-selection sector: Aldi US got lots better after BD launched IMO. (Which may be attributing too much to Bottom Dollar, which had stores in only three states while Aldi operates nationwide.)
I wonder if things are different across the pond? Delhaize certainly looks like a millstone Ahold draped around its own neck over on this side of the Atlantic.
Having been in stores of both Giants, I understand your argument here. Actually, it's my impression that the supermarket chains operating in the Washington/Baltimore market (I'm posting this while visiting a friend in DC) have flashier stores (except for Safeway, whose stores strike me as somewhat dated, or at least the one on Capitol Hill is) with a greater variety and selection of products and services. They also seem to be more willing to fit their stores into urban footprints, with parking in garages below the stores (the DC height limit makes above-ground garages less desirable, as builders would rather put residents on those upper floors). My guess, though, is that all this works in DC only because the Washington region is a good bit more affluent than the Philadelphia region. I think there are only a few parts of the city where you could make a go of it with a large supermarket in a building with parking above or below it, and most of those places already have at least one such supermarket (that's smaller than the typical modern store, the Whole Foods on the Parkway being the notable exception to this rule).
Something I note in all this is that at least in the eyes of the supermarket chains, New Castle County is as close to Washington as it is to Philadelphia. That may be because Lower Delaware has stronger ties to the former than the latter, DE 1 notwithstanding, and New Castle is the state's most populous and only truly urbanized county (though I may have to revise that assessment with all the development along the coast in Sussex ). After Safeway finished wrecking Genuardi's, it closed or sold all the former Genuardi's locations in Pennsylvania and New Jersey but rebadged those in the Wilmington 'burbs as Safeways.
Litmans is in Kroger Marketplace stores.
Delhaize also had Hannaford. Nobody talks about it. It's more fun to talk about trainwrecks like Food Lion.
I doubt that Bottom Dollar did anything to up Aldi's game. Lidl is coming. Aldi has been competing with Lidl for decades in Europe. They know what to do to prepare here. The Bottom Dollar stores were bigger and they provided locations in areas that didn't have Aldis before. I've been in two remodeled Aldis, now. They figured out how to cram about 1/3 more merchandise into the stores. It will require almost constant restocking.
The first group of Lidls to open will be on June 15th.
For whatever reason, Aldi wasn't in Delaware. They've acquired 2 sites in the vicinity of Newark, & so did Lidl. I don't know, but it's possible that Aldi got a couple of Food Lion stores. Maybe Lidl did too.
I was working in Owings Mills, MD when Acme exited the Baltimore market. Shortly afterward Giant of Landover came in. I was struck by the similarity to Pathmark. Later, when Super G entered South Jersey, those stores were decidedly more upscale. It just didn't fly. I always felt that there was something faulty with their demographic research. Ahold should have done something to differentiate the two Giant chains, maybe officially rename the division out of Carlisle as Giant of Carlisle. Then they could enter the whole market.
As it stands, there's room in the Philadelphia market for someone else, given the closures of a lot of smaller, older Acmes & the A&P failure taking out Pathmark & Super Fresh.
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Originally Posted by Carolina Knight
Harris Teeter could do well in Philadelphia. If it can open a quantity of quality stores, it could position itself to create another region specific for its Pennsylvania stores.
Harris Teeter came right up to the edge of the Philadelphia grocery market years ago. I get why they & Food Lion stopped. Years ago, Pathmark & ShopRite would have crushed them. A&P killed Pathmark from the inside out. There's nothing, competitively, stopping them now except ShopRite. I don't think that Harris Teeter can open enough stores that would be successful to open a new division. I do think that Kroger could open Kroger stores, successfully, but they just aren't.
If the Lidl stores knock out enough stores to give Publix a solid path up I 95, they could get to Philadelphia very quickly. They could then move out from I 95 & end up with 2 or 3 divisions, from the Charlotte division to & including Philadelphia. We'll just have to see how it plays out.
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Originally Posted by MarketStEl
I agree with you but note that Philadelphians have historically been as price-conscious as they are quality-conscious, if not more.
Acme's position as the overwhelmingly dominant chain in the Philadelphia market began to erode as competitors undercut them on price - not just ShopRite but also Pathmark (which, by the way, was the chain formed when the then-largest owner of stores in the Wakefern cooperative decided to go it alone in the early 1970s).
Genuardi's rise proved there is a sizable demand for quality in this market too, but the chain still had to be price-competitive with its regional rivals.
Wegmans learned this lesson in its home market of Rochester, N.Y., and has applied it aggressively everywhere it's expanded.
My impression is that Harris Teeter's not quite there yet, which may not be that big a deal in uber-affluent Washington but could cause problems for it if/when it moves into Greater Philadelphia.
Harris Teeter had a reputation for high prices. Kroger brought prices down, but I still don't think that the prices are at a place where they could establish a new division. If Kroger could have made a deal to acquire stores from A&P in the tri-state area & run them as Pathmark, it could have worked well. Since they failed to do a deal with A&P, I think that they'd have to come in as Kroger. That's not happening right now, on the eve of Lidl's arrival.
Harris Teeter came right up to the edge of the Philadelphia grocery market years ago. I get why they & Food Lion stopped.
Where were there Food Lion and Harris Teeter stores close to this market, other than in Central and Lower Delaware?
My impression of Food Lion is that it's pretty middle-of-the-road, much like Acme in this market or Safeway in DC.
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Years ago, Pathmark & ShopRite would have crushed them. A&P killed Pathmark from the inside out. There's nothing, competitively, stopping them now except ShopRite. I don't think that Harris Teeter can open enough stores that would be successful to open a new division. I do think that Kroger could open Kroger stores, successfully, but they just aren't.
What A&P did to Pathmark (which was beginning to experiment with upscale stores right when A&P bought Supermarkets General; the store at 180 W. Girard Ave. was supposed to be the first of Pathmark's new upscale-format stores in this area) was a shame.
Most ShopRite owners offer enough in the way of service and variety that I think it could still crush a higher-priced entrant into this market. Jeff Brown's stores especially, as I think I've said already, but even Ron Burns' stores (which have prepared-foods sections that are more in Wegmans' neighborhood in terms of variety but cater to a different market segment) do all right here.
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If the Lidl stores knock out enough stores to give Publix a solid path up I 95, they could get to Philadelphia very quickly. They could then move out from I 95 & end up with 2 or 3 divisions, from the Charlotte division to & including Philadelphia. We'll just have to see how it plays out.
The friend I'm staying with hails from Kentucky and has family in the Deep South. He has been inside a Publix, and while he liked it, he didn't see anything he considered special about it. He did like that the chain was employee-owned when I informed him of that. It seems to have obliterated all former rivals save Winn-Dixie in the South.
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). After Safeway finished wrecking Genuardi's, it closed or sold all the former Genuardi's locations in Pennsylvania and New Jersey but rebadged those in the Wilmington 'burbs as Safeways.
