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But if you enforced it equally amongst all people, then there was no problem. Starbucks certainly does not enforce that policy universally, as I have done what these two guys did more times then I can count without ever being told 'no'. Even Christine Flowers, the neanderthal conservative columnist for the Inquirer, said it was hard to see anything but racial bias in this incident.
I don't think Starbucks as a whole is at fault here, nor do I think the protesters screaming in the faces of the employees who work at the location is sensible either. It was a dumb decision made by a manager over a policy that apparently is not well defined. I have no doubt that a policy is going to be universally stated and all their employees will be trained in it ASAP.
So have I, and I'm black. I'm all for calling for consistent enforcement in the policy. What I reject (and strongly so) are claims that these men were treated differently because of the color of their skin. Coming to such a conclusion without knowing a lick about the manager is a bit much IMO.
Nope, I've done so while studying for the bar with a fellow law school buddy (who is also black, btw). If there is evidence of clear wrongdoing/racism/etc. on someone's part, then I'll be the first to forecefully call it out. What I will not do, however, is jump to rushed conclusions and prejudge people without knowing the full scale of event from all sides.
Ah, so its "common sense" that Starbucks managers are racist?
For as open minded and tolerant the left claims to be, you're doing an awful lot of prejudging here yourself. Making an assumption/claim that the ex-manager is racist without hearing her side of the story/knowing anything about her.
Of course people will clamber for a "link", but reports are the female manager was an outwardly liberal/progressive Democrat that wore liberal slogans on buttons on her clothing. Most Starbucks employees, and corporate culture fit this mold. That doesn't mean that she isn't "racist", but it does not seem to fit the narrative, does it? Maybe it was "unconscious racism" as the CEO of Starbucks claims. Maybe she became scared of two guys cursing at her? Who knows, but to have a national over reaction like we've had speaks volumes for the state of ur society, especially OUR media.
Of course people will clamber for a "link", but reports are the female manager was an outwardly liberal/progressive Democrat that wore liberal slogans on buttons on her clothing. Most Starbucks employees, and corporate culture fit this mold. That doesn't mean that she isn't "racist", but it does not seem to fit the narrative, does it? Maybe it was "unconscious racism" as the CEO of Starbucks claims. Maybe she became scared of two guys cursing at her? Who knows, but to have a national over reaction like we've had speaks volumes for the state of ur society, especially OUR media.
Good points. And maybe it was all of those things, as you ask. But, as I ask many of my friends, maybe it wasn't? It seemed foolish to me to rush to judgment on this matter before all of the facts came out. It is interesting to me that the media hasn't managed to get the ex-manager's side of the story (I wonder if they've even tried to be honest).
You are stuck in the mud, but are debating an important issue. Re-read your back-and-forth posts and asked yourself: Has anything of value come about as a result of this conversation? Is there a much bigger question that is overlooked by focusing on locked restrooms in fast-food restaurants? Petty issues although they might generate contentious banter, often obscure the more important aspects of an issue. Big Question: Do we want a world in which all people are treated with respect? Smaller Question:To what extent must a private business tolerate rude and disruptive behavior? And Smaller Question: How much does race, personal style and appearance prejudice others who disapprove of the particular race, style and appearance? Not-so-smart Question: Do we automatically call the cops on those with piercings and tattoos? Really Absurd Question: Should unsightly indigents be removed from the streets and locked up? You might be surprised. Check out the laws in Singapore: 16 odd things that are illegal in Singapore - Business Insider These kind of questions you might want to consider arguing about. Then again maybe bathroom codes are interesting--sort of.
You are stuck in the mud, but are debating an important issue. Re-read your back-and-forth posts and asked yourself: Has anything of value come about as a result of this conversation? Is there a much bigger question that is overlooked by focusing on locked restrooms in fast-food restaurants? Petty issues although they might generate contentious banter, often obscure the more important aspects of an issue. Big Question: Do we want a world in which all people are treated with respect? Smaller Question:To what extent must a private business tolerate rude and disruptive behavior? And Smaller Question: How much does race, personal style and appearance prejudice others who disapprove of the particular race, style and appearance? Not-so-smart Question: Do we automatically call the cops on those with piercings and tattoos? Really Absurd Question: Should unsightly indigents be removed from the streets and locked up? You might be surprised. Check out the laws in Singapore: 16 odd things that are illegal in Singapore - Business Insider These kind of questions you might want to consider arguing about. Then again maybe bathroom codes are interesting--sort of.
Racism is merely a symptom of stupidity. However, I need to provide context here as this is a complex issue. You don't have to agree with my perspective but maybe it will help some of you get it or explain it. Especially to someone who has never lived in Philly. There are some regional dynamics here which people in the national media viewing from other areas don't understand. They are shocked. How could something like this happen in Starbucks in the City of Brotherly Love????:
I am a Black Man early 30's that has lived in both NYC and Philly. I am currently in NYC where I was born and raised. Personally I would have just left the store told the person what happened and changed the location. However, that is a personal decision.
What I don't like about Philly is how the racism is less overt and more ambiguous or inconsistent. I do not like Liberal PC culture. We are not toddlers in a playpen. Things are different now. But as recent as in the late 90's in 5 boroughs NYC there were a few groups where you don't go to their neighborhoods or eat their food. Bensonhurst, Howard Beach, Woodhaven, etc. - Serbs, Sicilians and Greeks in particular if you were walking through their neighborhood you're liable to get beat up and the cops called no matter what time of the day. As a kid I was told this and kids understand things best when put plainly and honestly. No charades. In NYC a Black child understands "the rules". That when you go to UES or West Village you will be critiqued and analyzed on if you are supposed to be here or not. If you do not have a valid reason you will be arrested. Many Black children in Philly on the other hand grow up confused. They think because they had 2 Black Mayors and a Black Police Commissioner and 50% of the City is Black that they are safe. This is something that always astounded me. To me - Rittenhouse Square area is like UES in the 90's. There's no reason for you to be there. I would have suggested another meeting location to the business partner. I lived in the UES for 1 year, 4 years ago, things have changed. Philly on the other hand has some catching up to do.
In Philly, you have this quasi-tolerance which confuses everyone because there is a larger concentration of Blacks in this city. I didn't like it. This is why you have these misunderstandings. My Father grew up in the 60's where they call you an N-word to your face. He preferred those times and so would I. He retired recently. But on the job after the 90's he couldn't tell who was trying to sabotage him because they drive the racists underground now with PC culture. I don't like not knowing where I stand and who to look out for.
You have ultra liberal hipsters mixed in with son of a coal miner rough neck conservatives. Both of them can very well be racist and often times the former was and the latter was NOT. There was no consistency in how you could tell. There is a more tangible general ambiance of discontent with life in Philadelphia for various reasons. I am sure Holly Hylton was a bleeding heart liberal. But anyways, in Philly your race it's simply more palatable. In NYC we have every culture from every corner of the Earth. In Philly it's literally just American Black and American White. The last time I was there was 2010 maybe things have changed. I know Asians are increasing in population there but when I lived there in UC, there was virtually no Hispanics in UC, Center City, South Philly or West Philly at all which seemed odd to me. You didn't even see them in the downtown CC shopping district. And most Asians were from SNJ/Cherry Hill commuting. In Philly you're either a "Good" Black or a "Bad" one. In NYC, there's a bit more differentiation. (Southern, African, Ghetto, Corporate, Religious, etc.) Could not stand that polarity dynamic going on.
Anyways, If you are going to be racist do it every day of the week every hour every minute every second. Proudly wear it. Don't use employment as an excuse. There are plenty of racist employers that will hire you to help you financially support your beliefs.
Be honest and proud wear your hood out in public! I want to see who I need to walk away from and ignore.
We don't need PC laws.
We don't need racial sensitivity training.
We just need to be honest and practical.
I hate discrimination laws because they don't work. Let the people vote with their money because that is the only thing that changes practices anyways. Black people stop demanding better treatment and simply stop financially supporting businesses that don't treat you well. I have not been to a Starbucks since 2012 for various reasons and I would not boycott the company - I would simply write a bad Yelp review for that particular location and they can choose to continue to employ her there or not - I will simply not shop there nor meet anyone there at that location.
Let the free market dictate whether racism survives or not, not these silly PR/PC campaigns where you have a bunch of White people feeling guilty about something they didn't do personally. How in the hell are we going to understand who the real idiots are if we keep going with these BLM charades. BLM hasn't benefitted my life in any way shape or form. What benefits me is being vocal about where I spend my money and why.
MechaM, I stopped reading your post with the "two black mayors" in Phila. remark.
There have been three(3) black mayors: Wilson Goode(1984-1992), John Street(2000-2008), and Michael Nutter(2008-2016). Whatever pov you were trying to make was lessened by not knowing simple facts like that.
You probably forgot or didn't know about Goode who was in office during the famous MOVE conflagration of 1985.
Philly has changed a lot since 2010, which was the first year I came down here. Also, Philly's demographics are far from being just American Black/American White. As of the 2010 census (and I guarantee you it's changed since then):
Black- 44.2% (and there is a growing number of Caribbean and African black community in the city).
White- 34.9% (Non-Hispanic, and again this is far from being all native-born Caucasian).
Hispanic- 13.6% (and again, this has probably grown since then).
Asian- 7.4% (this has definitely increased).
South Philly is considerably diverse. You have large numbers of Asian immigrants, whites, blacks, and Latinos. University City is also very diverse, and has considerable numbers of Asian exchange students and Asian-Americans who attend Penn and Drexel. The Northeast is also very diverse with American whites, European (especially Russian) immigrants, Brazilians, Koreans, other East Asians, etc. My own South Philly neighborhood block has about 5 different languages I've heard spoken on the streets.
So yes, your views on the racial makeup/mixing of the city was not only wrong in 2010, but even more wrong in 2018. Things are definitely not perfect, but it is nowhere near an "all American black/American white" city. That hasn't been true in decades, just based on looking at census information.
My Father grew up in the 60's where they call you an N-word to your face. He preferred those times and so would I. He retired recently. But on the job after the 90's he couldn't tell who was trying to sabotage him because they drive the racists underground now with PC culture. I don't like not knowing where I stand and who to look out for.
That is a very interesting perspective and something I wouldn't have even thought of as a white guy.
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