U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
View Poll Results: Should Philly look to add a third subway line?
Yes, it would be a good long-term goal 28 53.85%
Yes, get on it right away 16 30.77%
No, it's not necessary 3 5.77%
No, it's not feasible 3 5.77%
Wouldn't really matter either way 2 3.85%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 06-03-2019, 12:16 PM
 
85 posts, read 30,482 times
Reputation: 127

Advertisements

Quote:
Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
Unions assure 2 things - 1. It will take an absurd amount of time to complete and 2. it will cost exponentially more to complete.

Glad to see you agree that unions ensure that people performing the work aren't over-worked and sufficient time to study the project is taken to ensure their safety, and that they are appropriately paid for the work they do.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 06-03-2019, 12:58 PM
 
Location: New York City
1,371 posts, read 781,463 times
Reputation: 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by Redddog View Post
Unions assure 2 things - 1. It will take an absurd amount of time to complete and 2. it will cost exponentially more to complete.
To solely blame unions is wildly inaccurate, to say the least...
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2019, 02:05 PM
 
426 posts, read 159,873 times
Reputation: 734
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
To be fair, Boston also anchors an urban area very similar in scope/scale to Philly's, so not as much of a disparity as you might think. That being said, however, Boston's subway does still have somewhat better coverage and is much better utilized.

I think it's more worthwhile to continue to build-up the Market and Broad Street Corridors to increase ridership, therefore justifying more subway expansion in the future.
Good points but isn't the eastern half of the El close to capacity during peak travel?
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2019, 08:32 PM
 
Location: Philadelphia, Pa
1,434 posts, read 1,596,501 times
Reputation: 1604
Quote:
Originally Posted by PHL10 View Post
Good points but isn't the eastern half of the El close to capacity during peak travel?
I'd say both ends of the line are close to capacity at peak periods.
By the time an eastbound train arrives at 46th street, about 2 miles, from it's start point, it's already packed. Same for the Frankford/Kensington Corridor.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-03-2019, 10:11 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
6,213 posts, read 3,048,381 times
Reputation: 3932
Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNgFooCj View Post
Exactly. It's pretty ridiculous for Philly to have all these light-rail lines and just 2 subway lines. Boston, a city with less than half the population, has 3.
So does Philadelphia.

Remember, PATCO counts.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-04-2019, 05:30 AM
 
Location: New York City
1,371 posts, read 781,463 times
Reputation: 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
So does Philadelphia.

Remember, PATCO counts.
But like I mentioned before, PATCO serves suburban commuters, not people traveling within the city. So for travel within the boundaries of Philadelphia, it's useless.

MBTA Subway Ridership
Red Line Ridership- 240,000 (2019)
Orange Line Ridership- 190,000 (2019)
Blue Line Ridership- 69,000 (2019)
Green Lines Ridership- 169,600 (2017)

SEPTA Subway/Light Rail Ridership
Broad Street Line- 123, 315 (2015)
Market-Frankford Line- 187,449 (2016)
Trolley Lines- 132,355 (2016)

When looking side-by-side, Boston's heavy/light rail has noticeably higher ridership, even if you counted PATCO. The Metros are similar size, and SEPTA's Regional Rail ridership is only slightly ahead of the MBTA's commuter lines.

It just seems that in comparison, our public transit is less utilized and woefully underdeveloped.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-04-2019, 08:51 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
6,213 posts, read 3,048,381 times
Reputation: 3932
Quote:
Originally Posted by MB1562 View Post
But like I mentioned before, PATCO serves suburban commuters, not people traveling within the city. So for travel within the boundaries of Philadelphia, it's useless.

MBTA Subway Ridership
Red Line Ridership- 240,000 (2019)
Orange Line Ridership- 190,000 (2019)
Blue Line Ridership- 69,000 (2019)
Green Lines Ridership- 169,600 (2017)

SEPTA Subway/Light Rail Ridership
Broad Street Line- 123, 315 (2015)
Market-Frankford Line- 187,449 (2016)
Trolley Lines- 132,355 (2016)

When looking side-by-side, Boston's heavy/light rail has noticeably higher ridership, even if you counted PATCO. The Metros are similar size, and SEPTA's Regional Rail ridership is only slightly ahead of the MBTA's commuter lines.

It just seems that in comparison, our public transit is less utilized and woefully underdeveloped.
One reason I do count PATCO is because Boston's mass transit system is a hybrid: the MBTA grafted a Second Subway Era "remote vehicle storage" commuter system onto a First Subway Era circulator system (Orange Line extension beyond Wellington, D branch Green Line, Red Line Alewife park-and-ride interceptor, Red Line South Shore Extension - this last line is very similar in character to PATCO, right down to the color code on maps ).

Ergo, the similar line in Philadelphia should be counted as part of the system.

That may not change the stats in any meaningful way, but it does mean the network here is not as pitiful as so many say it is.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-04-2019, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Boston Metrowest (via the Philly area)
4,745 posts, read 7,845,060 times
Reputation: 4700
Quote:
Originally Posted by MB1562 View Post
When looking side-by-side, Boston's heavy/light rail has noticeably higher ridership, even if you counted PATCO. The Metros are similar size, and SEPTA's Regional Rail ridership is only slightly ahead of the MBTA's commuter lines.

It just seems that in comparison, our public transit is less utilized and woefully underdeveloped.
Underdeveloped? Not as much as you might think, at least by comparison to peers. Consider that SEPTA, systemwide, has 75 stations dedicated to rapid transit lines (this actually includes the Norristown High Speed Line), wheras the MBTA has 53: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_by_ridership

The Boston area's overall rapid transit system length is 38 miles, versus an only ever-so-slightly-shorter 36.7 miles in the Philly area. The crux of the difference is how its been utilized and invested in over time; that's where SEPTA had historically lacked, but is finally able to play some "catch up." Also, I can't think of a large public transit system in the US that couldn't use an extra few billion to beef up and modernize their operations.

But yes, under-utilization is most definitely true. But that's why there really needs to be a much more vigorous concentration of residential/commercial activity along a much greater length of Philly's transit corridors. There's so much unrealized potential in that regard.

Also, I'd counter that a subway commuter line like PATCO is a huge asset for the city--Boston's orange, red and green lines play a similar role, as MarketStEl alluded to above.

Many other cities only dream of such infrastructure.

Last edited by Duderino; 06-04-2019 at 09:46 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-04-2019, 11:54 AM
 
85 posts, read 30,482 times
Reputation: 127
Quote:
Originally Posted by Duderino View Post
Underdeveloped? Not as much as you might think, at least by comparison to peers. Consider that SEPTA, systemwide, has 75 stations dedicated to rapid transit lines (this actually includes the Norristown High Speed Line), wheras the MBTA has 53: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_o...s_by_ridership

The Boston area's overall rapid transit system length is 38 miles, versus an only ever-so-slightly-shorter 36.7 miles in the Philly area. The crux of the difference is how its been utilized and invested in over time; that's where SEPTA had historically lacked, but is finally able to play some "catch up." Also, I can't think of a large public transit system in the US that couldn't use an extra few billion to beef up and modernize their operations.

But yes, under-utilization is most definitely true. But that's why there really needs to be a much more vigorous concentration of residential/commercial activity along a much greater length of Philly's transit corridors. There's so much unrealized potential in that regard.

Also, I'd counter that a subway commuter line like PATCO is a huge asset for the city--Boston's orange, red and green lines play a similar role, as MarketStEl alluded to above.

Many other cities only dream of such infrastructure.

We do need some more cross-rapid transit connections though. There probably should be a heavy rail line that connects Mannayunk - Olney transport center - and the Frankford Transportation Center like the Purple line in DC. Ideally it'd also connect down to the 69th St Transportation center in west philly So that all ends of the lines and the major outer ring of transport centers are all cross connected.


We also DRASTICALLY need better cross connections on the BSL. It's a great backbone, but the system doesn't do a very good job of feeding people into it. If you want to avoid the cost of light rail feeder lines, then bus rapid transit with dedicated lanes, level boarding, and off-bus fare payment could ferry people quickly to and from the BSL stations. The main cost would be the road sculpting and pre-bus payment systems, but especially in the areas outside of the Center city area there's no where near enough traffic to really be impacted by loosing a lane to a rapid transit bus line.


I'd ideally like to see ~10 minute headways for these rapid transit bus lines that cross the BSL stations so that they line up with arrivals from the BSL trains.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 06-04-2019, 04:16 PM
 
4,995 posts, read 3,039,427 times
Reputation: 3269
I think dedicated BRT makes sense for feeding more people to the BSL. A lot of people take the bus all the way downtown because they live to far away.

Frankly, a big contributing factor to the lower ridership numbers is, the city is straight up underdeveloped a bit. Tons of development happening that will influence ridership into the future. The fact that new buildings keep getting announced in the Navy Yard make me believe that should always be the first thing to get done.

I am okay counting the PATCO as a true third line already. Once the franklin square station reopens, it will have 5 stops in Center City.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top