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View Poll Results: Should Philly look to add a third subway line?
Yes, it would be a good long-term goal 28 53.85%
Yes, get on it right away 16 30.77%
No, it's not necessary 3 5.77%
No, it's not feasible 3 5.77%
Wouldn't really matter either way 2 3.85%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-04-2019, 06:17 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,520 posts, read 10,848,867 times
Reputation: 5441

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Quote:
Originally Posted by thedirtypirate View Post
I am okay counting the PATCO as a true third line already. Once the franklin square station reopens, it will have 5 stops in Center City.
Once the Franklin Square station opens up, let's hope that will finally shut up all the PATCO haters claiming that it's not a legit subway line in Philly.

Last edited by gwillyfromphilly; 06-04-2019 at 06:25 PM..
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Old 06-04-2019, 06:26 PM
 
1,538 posts, read 554,074 times
Reputation: 1067
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Once the Franklin Square station opens up, let's hope that will finally shut up all the PATCO haters claiming that it's not a legit subway line in Philly.
I mean I'm all for considering Patco a Philly subway line, but when it comes down to facts at the end of the day, Philly still officially has only 2 subway lines and that's unacceptable and embarrassing for a city its size. It's not so much what Philly thinks about itself that matters, but how its viewed by the country, at least imo.
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Old 06-04-2019, 06:30 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by KoNgFooCj View Post
I mean I'm all for considering Patco a Philly subway line, but when it comes down to facts at the end of the day, Philly still officially has only 2 subway lines...
No, SEPTA officially has 2 subway lines. Philly officially has 3 subway lines. That's the difference!

Last edited by gwillyfromphilly; 06-04-2019 at 06:49 PM..
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Old 06-04-2019, 06:56 PM
 
Location: New York City
1,371 posts, read 781,463 times
Reputation: 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Once the Franklin Square station opens up, let's hope that will finally shut up all the PATCO haters claiming that it's not a legit subway line in Philly.
Okay but, it will still serve almost exclusively commuters between South Jersey and Center City. People aren't going to be using it to get from one stop in CC to another. It's just like PATH. It is technically a heavy rail line but it serves the exact same purpose as LIRR, MetroNorth, and NJT: to get suburban commuters into and out of the heart of the city. It's a legitimate reason to not count it as a useful subway line, because it serves very little purpose for those of us who live and work in Philadelphia.

People are really only counting it on here because it gives us a little boost in an area we are desperately lacking in compared to the rest of the Northeast.
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Old 06-04-2019, 10:49 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
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What I've learned is that the people who don't considered the PATCO a "Philly subway line" are mainly going off "feelings" and not facts. All of the arguments I've seen against the PATCO being included are weak. What I also find hypercritical is that none of you SEPTA boosters bring up the fact that the MFL serves the suburbs as well. The MFL offers suburban commuters service in Montgomery County while PATCO offers service to suburban commuters in South Jersey. So according so some of your logic, the BSL is the only real "Philly subway."

Some of you seem to forget that SEPTA isn't the only transit system operating in the city.
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Old 06-04-2019, 11:39 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
6,213 posts, read 3,048,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Nitro2985 View Post
We do need some more cross-rapid transit connections though. There probably should be a heavy rail line that connects Mannayunk - Olney transport center - and the Frankford Transportation Center like the Purple line in DC. Ideally it'd also connect down to the 69th St Transportation center in west philly So that all ends of the lines and the major outer ring of transport centers are all cross connected.


We also DRASTICALLY need better cross connections on the BSL. It's a great backbone, but the system doesn't do a very good job of feeding people into it. If you want to avoid the cost of light rail feeder lines, then bus rapid transit with dedicated lanes, level boarding, and off-bus fare payment could ferry people quickly to and from the BSL stations. The main cost would be the road sculpting and pre-bus payment systems, but especially in the areas outside of the Center city area there's no where near enough traffic to really be impacted by loosing a lane to a rapid transit bus line.


I'd ideally like to see ~10 minute headways for these rapid transit bus lines that cross the BSL stations so that they line up with arrivals from the BSL trains.
Bus Routes 26 and 65 basically cover the route you describe. And when I wrote an article arguing that the money SEPTA was spending restoring 24-hour rapid transit service on weekends could be better spent on adding 24-hour service to parts of the city that don't have it now, one of the routes readers told me I left off the list but should have had on it was the 65 - which is probably the most heavily traveled of the northwest "crosstown" routes aside from the 18.

I've now ridden it many times myself, and I too think it would be nice to have a faster option along its corridor.

The BSL was supposed to be the trunk of a many-branched tree. There were supposed to be spurs or extensions to the Northeast, Germantown, West Oak Lane and Roxborough (the last from Center City), and later on, one to the southwest - replacing an initially proposed spur off a Chestnut Street subway that would have relieved traffic pressure on the original Market Street line (the first one to be built in the city, opened in 1907).
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Old 06-04-2019, 11:41 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
6,213 posts, read 3,048,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
What I've learned is that the people who don't considered the PATCO a "Philly subway line" are mainly going off "feelings" and not facts. All of the arguments I've seen against the PATCO being included are weak. What I also find hypercritical is that none of you SEPTA boosters bring up the fact that the MFL serves the suburbs as well. The MFL offers suburban commuters service in Montgomery County while PATCO offers service to suburban commuters in South Jersey. So according so some of your logic, the BSL is the only real "Philly subway."

Some of you seem to forget that SEPTA isn't the only transit system operating in the city.
Actually, Montgomery County residents take buses or the NHSL to get to the Market Street line, which terminates in Upper Darby, Delaware County.

But a separate rapid transit line that operates entirely in the suburbs is unusual.
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Old 06-05-2019, 05:25 AM
 
Location: New York City
1,371 posts, read 781,463 times
Reputation: 2125
Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
What I've learned is that the people who don't considered the PATCO a "Philly subway line" are mainly going off "feelings" and not facts. All of the arguments I've seen against the PATCO being included are weak. What I also find hypercritical is that none of you SEPTA boosters bring up the fact that the MFL serves the suburbs as well. The MFL offers suburban commuters service in Montgomery County while PATCO offers service to suburban commuters in South Jersey. So according so some of your logic, the BSL is the only real "Philly subway."

Some of you seem to forget that SEPTA isn't the only transit system operating in the city.
That logic is completely flawed because the Market-Frankford Line is used 99% of the time to travel from City Point A to City Point B. It has a total of 1 stop outside the city limits (and just barely). PATCO is a suburban commuter line because 99% of it's trips are for suburban people to get into the city for work/pleasure and then back home to South Jersey when they are done. It is essentially useless for Philadelphians to get around the city in.

So no, Philadelphia has 2 main subway lines and 1 trunk line. One line has 3 services (local, express, spur), and the other has 2 (local/skip-stop). PATCO doesn't count, sorry.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:25 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,520 posts, read 10,848,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
Actually, Montgomery County residents take buses or the NHSL to get to the Market Street line, which terminates in Upper Darby, Delaware County.

But a separate rapid transit line that operates entirely in the suburbs is unusual.
I meant to say Delaware County, that was a minor error.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:29 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,520 posts, read 10,848,867 times
Reputation: 5441
Quote:
Originally Posted by MB1562 View Post
That logic is completely flawed because the Market-Frankford Line is used 99% of the time to travel from City Point A to City Point B. It has a total of 1 stop outside the city limits (and just barely). PATCO is a suburban commuter line because 99% of it's trips are for suburban people to get into the city for work/pleasure and then back home to South Jersey when they are done. It is essentially useless for Philadelphians to get around the city in.

So no, Philadelphia has 2 main subway lines and 1 trunk line. One line has 3 services (local, express, spur), and the other has 2 (local/skip-stop). PATCO doesn't count, sorry.
So we should exclude the PATCO as being a Philly subway line because it doesn't service the city the way you want it to? Seems like this is "feelings over facts" again.
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