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View Poll Results: Should Philly look to add a third subway line?
Yes, it would be a good long-term goal 28 53.85%
Yes, get on it right away 16 30.77%
No, it's not necessary 3 5.77%
No, it's not feasible 3 5.77%
Wouldn't really matter either way 2 3.85%
Voters: 52. You may not vote on this poll

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Old 06-05-2019, 07:33 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
23,613 posts, read 10,782,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
So we should exclude the PATCO as being a Philly subway line because it doesn't service the city the way you want it to? Seems like this is "feelings over facts" again.
PATCO is for people from Jersey to get to Philly and back. It is not an intra Philly subway line. Look at the system map. Most of it is in Jersey.

PATCO
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:36 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
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Philadelphians wishing they had a 3rd subway line while stubbornly ignoring the fact that they already have it.

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Old 06-05-2019, 07:38 AM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pilot1 View Post
PATCO is for people from Jersey to get to Philly and back. It is not an intra Philly subway line. Look at the system map. Most of it is in Jersey.

PATCO
The MFL isn't an intra Philly subway line either because it also serves Delaware County. You can't have it both ways. If the PATCO is excluded then so is the MFL.
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Old 06-05-2019, 07:41 AM
 
Location: Denver, CO
23,613 posts, read 10,782,374 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
The MFL isn't an intra Philly subway line either because it also serves Delaware County. You can't have it both ways. If the PATCO is excluded then so is the MFL.
What? Look at the system map. How many stops are in Delco? The MFL is the "El" not the "Subway".

SEPTA | Market-Frankford Line Map
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Old 06-05-2019, 08:14 AM
 
239 posts, read 139,262 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
The MFL isn't an intra Philly subway line either because it also serves Delaware County. You can't have it both ways. If the PATCO is excluded then so is the MFL.
That strikes me as an apples / oranges comparison. I think the difference is in the majority makeup of the service area and the way it's used. Yes, the MFL has two stops in Delaware County, but every other station is located in Philadelphia. It's almost exclusively an intra-Philly service line. No one is going to use the MFL just to go from 69th street to Millbourne, for example.

Conversely, yes, while PATCO has a couple of stops in Philly, every other station is in Jersey. And no one in Philly is really going to use PATCO just to go from 9th to 16th street, for example.

Frankly, I really don't care if people want to include PATCO or not, but I don't think you can compare it to the MFL in any meaningful way.
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:06 AM
 
Location: New York City
1,371 posts, read 781,463 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by gwillyfromphilly View Post
Philadelphians wishing they had a 3rd subway line while stubbornly ignoring the fact that they already have it.
You're being ridiculous. Does anybody in Philadelphia use it to get from one point in the city to another? No. It's a commuter line for South Jersey people to get to Philadelphia and back out again. It doesn't count because it serves 9-5 commuters and the Friday/Saturday night crowd, that's pretty much it. The actual BSL and MFL lines serve to get city people from city point A to city point B all day/every day. Why is that so difficult to comprehend? I've lived in Philadelphia for 5 years now and have never once used PATCO. I use the BSL every day and the MFL frequently because they are subway lines for the city, not commuter lines for suburbanites.

Nobody in New York counts PATH as a subway line the way you are, and they have 4 lines. It's the EXACT same thing.
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Old 06-05-2019, 09:28 AM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
6,213 posts, read 3,048,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB1562 View Post
You're being ridiculous. Does anybody in Philadelphia use it to get from one point in the city to another? No. It's a commuter line for South Jersey people to get to Philadelphia and back out again. It doesn't count because it serves 9-5 commuters and the Friday/Saturday night crowd, that's pretty much it. The actual BSL and MFL lines serve to get city people from city point A to city point B all day/every day. Why is that so difficult to comprehend? I've lived in Philadelphia for 5 years now and have never once used PATCO. I use the BSL every day and the MFL frequently because they are subway lines for the city, not commuter lines for suburbanites.

Nobody in New York counts PATH as a subway line the way you are, and they have 4 lines. It's the EXACT same thing.
I live in Philadephia and use PATCO whenever I travel to New Jersey, just as I use PATH when traveling from a friend's place outside Newark to New York.

That the number of core city residents who use it to get around the city is small doesn't make it not a subway. That term refers to its physical and operating characteristics, not who rides it and why. All of the Second Subway Era systems, plus Boston's newer lines, serve a commuter function along with the circulator one (some of the lines are primarily commuter routes), and using your metric, BART isn't a subway at all, because most San Franciscans don't use the one line that goes through the city to get around it. (Yes, there's Oakland, but that's the secondary core city even if it has more BART service than San Fran does, it being the hub of the system.)

That's why you keep getting pushback from us transit geeks.
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Old 06-05-2019, 10:17 AM
 
Location: New York City
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MarketStEl View Post
I live in Philadephia and use PATCO whenever I travel to New Jersey, just as I use PATH when traveling from a friend's place outside Newark to New York.

That the number of core city residents who use it to get around the city is small doesn't make it not a subway. That term refers to its physical and operating characteristics, not who rides it and why. All of the Second Subway Era systems, plus Boston's newer lines, serve a commuter function along with the circulator one (some of the lines are primarily commuter routes), and using your metric, BART isn't a subway at all, because most San Franciscans don't use the one line that goes through the city to get around it. (Yes, there's Oakland, but that's the secondary core city even if it has more BART service than San Fran does, it being the hub of the system.)

That's why you keep getting pushback from us transit geeks.
If it doesn't serve the function of primarily or usefully transporting people from point to point in the city, then I don't count it. It may technically be a rapid transit subway line, but it serves almost exclusively suburban commuters, not city residents. It's purpose of transportation is essentially the same as Regional Rail, not the MFL or BSL.

If it makes you happy, fine, it's technically a rapid transit line. But it is one that is almost totally useless for people who actually live/work in Philadelphia, which is what really matters far past the technicalities. Nobody in Philadelphia rides it to get around Philadelphia just as nobody rides PATH in New York to get around New York.

So I stand by my statement that Philly only has 2 subway lines (and a spur) that serve as intra-city transport. Counting it as a third subway line in the city is dishonest boosting. Nobody outside this forum counts it as such in layman terms.
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:03 PM
 
Location: Germantown, Philadelphia
6,213 posts, read 3,048,381 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB1562 View Post
If it doesn't serve the function of primarily or usefully transporting people from point to point in the city, then I don't count it. It may technically be a rapid transit subway line, but it serves almost exclusively suburban commuters, not city residents. It's purpose of transportation is essentially the same as Regional Rail, not the MFL or BSL.

If it makes you happy, fine, it's technically a rapid transit line. But it is one that is almost totally useless for people who actually live/work in Philadelphia, which is what really matters far past the technicalities. Nobody in Philadelphia rides it to get around Philadelphia just as nobody rides PATH in New York to get around New York.

So I stand by my statement that Philly only has 2 subway lines (and a spur) that serve as intra-city transport. Counting it as a third subway line in the city is dishonest boosting. Nobody outside this forum counts it as such in layman terms.
Seriously: Don't be so certain about that.

I'm a transit geek, as my posting handle should make clear, but many lay folk do consider any rapid transit line serving a metropolitan center as a subway line, regardless of how it's used within the metro.

No Chicagoan would omit the Skokie Swift, for instance, from the list of Chicago metro/subway lines, even though it serves as a suburban feeder to the Red Line. Is it a line Chicagoans use to move around Chicago? Clearly not. Is it a line Chicagoans use to move around the region, and does it operate like rapid transit? Yes. Then it's not "commuter rail," even if that is its primary function.

Were the Regional Rail network to be converted to high-platform boarding with off-board fare collection (SEPTA Key takes care of the latter) and operated at 15-20 minute headways or less throughout the service day, many would consider it a "subway" or "metro" - it already has unusually close station spacing.

I could go on but won't right now.
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Old 06-05-2019, 12:24 PM
 
Location: Vineland, NJ
8,520 posts, read 10,848,867 times
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Quote:
Originally Posted by MB1562 View Post
You're being ridiculous. Does anybody in Philadelphia use it to get from one point in the city to another? No. It's a commuter line for South Jersey people to get to Philadelphia and back out again. It doesn't count because it serves 9-5 commuters and the Friday/Saturday night crowd, that's pretty much it. The actual BSL and MFL lines serve to get city people from city point A to city point B all day/every day. Why is that so difficult to comprehend? I've lived in Philadelphia for 5 years now and have never once used PATCO. I use the BSL every day and the MFL frequently because they are subway lines for the city, not commuter lines for suburbanites.

Nobody in New York counts PATH as a subway line the way you are, and they have 4 lines. It's the EXACT same thing.
When I used to live in the city, I would use the PATCO frequently to go to work in South Jersey. So it was certainly useful for me. It's no different than someone using the MFL to commute to Delaware County for work. Both the PATCO and the MFL both serve suburbanites.

As far as New York is concerned, PATH is rapid transit subway system that operates in NYC. Whether or not a New Yorker believes that PATH is a subway line doesn't really matter because it doesn't change the facts.
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