U.S. CitiesCity-Data Forum Index
Covid-19 Information Page
Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
 [Register]
Please register to participate in our discussions with 2 million other members - it's free and quick! Some forums can only be seen by registered members. After you create your account, you'll be able to customize options and access all our 15,000 new posts/day with fewer ads.
View detailed profile (Advanced) or search
site with Google Custom Search

Search Forums  (Advanced)
Reply Start New Thread
 
Old 11-13-2018, 03:45 PM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,547 posts, read 3,477,198 times
Reputation: 972

Advertisements

Has anyone seen the layout for the Ellis Preserve development in Newtown Square?
http://ellispreserve.com/

How does this design equate to a new “village center” for Newtown Square. Glorified strip mall maybe. For such a high end area, I assumed a real upscale downtown type plan would have been demanded. Why didn’t they just go for this plan; https://glackinplan.com/projects/ell...is-preserve-6/

This is a big, missed opportunity here.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message

 
Old 11-13-2018, 10:08 PM
 
Location: Montco PA
2,065 posts, read 4,290,092 times
Reputation: 1478
Because many of the denizens of suburban Philadelphia are allergic to more urban things like taller buildings, density, and street lighting.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2018, 06:15 AM
 
2,955 posts, read 2,379,665 times
Reputation: 4702
Honestly I am sure it will be lovely.
As a new resident a few miles away in Chester County, I find NS a tad congested. This will only add to it- but it sure will be lovely and convenient.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2018, 07:08 AM
 
Location: New York City
6,227 posts, read 5,562,899 times
Reputation: 3325
I have driven through it. Its definitely not a strip mall, but not a true town center.

Positives:

1. The architecture is of a higher mark, the Whole Foods did a nice job with the design

2. There are hundreds of apartments and townhomes behind the site under construction, integrating residential into the mix.

3. There is a hotel, gym, walking trail in the mix adding an extra element

4. There are thousands of extremely high paying jobs now within walking distance to the site


Negatives:

1. For the most part you have to drive and park to enjoy/ utilize the center

2. There are not enough open/ community spaces for dining outside, movies in the park, laying out in the sun, etc.

3. Not enough food options, all pretty standard

4. The developer did not attempt to hide parking behind or next to structures, he instead put it right in front

4. MOST IMPORTANT, the wealthy bats of Newtown Square will fight to the end to keep density and land usage at a minimum, therefore reducing the potential impact of the site on the area.


If you want an example of a town Center done right, The Village at Valley Forge is becoming a fantastic spot. There are hotels, active adult apartments, extended stay options, townhomes, luxury apartments, a TON of food options, and space for people to enjoy the center, not just drive up, shop, and drive away.

The parking is strategically place so that you generally do not have to walk across a sea of cars to get to your destination, and there is an actual street layout.

The only issue with the Village is that is it still rather confined and surrounded by a sea of highways, but I did notice Toll Brothers is adding an extra entry road off of N Gulph Road. The key is integrating the site with the surrounding community as much as possible, and I think it is doing that as best at it can. The final missing link for that is connecting it to the KoP mall.

In general, I think KoP is an extremely important asset to the Philadelphia area, it is one of the few suburbs that is blowing up with economic development, definitely doing a better job at attracting business than Philadelphia.
Newtown Square is another area rapidly growing, but in a different sense. Newtown Square is the land of million dollar homes, KoP is a business center, so unfortunately we are not going to see a dense downtown in Newtown Square.

So in conclusion, it is a challenge for developers and townships to create a true urban village (Media, West Chester, Ardmore, etc.) nowadays because of so many factors at play. Ellis Preserve I give a C+ as of now, but I think we need to wait another 2 year to see how the hundreds of homes and apartments will integrate into the site when complete, that might raise it to a B.

Last edited by cpomp; 11-14-2018 at 07:16 AM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2018, 01:27 PM
 
Location: Montco PA
2,065 posts, read 4,290,092 times
Reputation: 1478
Quote:
Originally Posted by cpomp View Post
I have driven through it. Its definitely not a strip mall, but not a true town center.

Positives:

1. The architecture is of a higher mark, the Whole Foods did a nice job with the design

2. There are hundreds of apartments and townhomes behind the site under construction, integrating residential into the mix.

3. There is a hotel, gym, walking trail in the mix adding an extra element

4. There are thousands of extremely high paying jobs now within walking distance to the site


Negatives:

1. For the most part you have to drive and park to enjoy/ utilize the center

2. There are not enough open/ community spaces for dining outside, movies in the park, laying out in the sun, etc.

3. Not enough food options, all pretty standard

4. The developer did not attempt to hide parking behind or next to structures, he instead put it right in front

4. MOST IMPORTANT, the wealthy bats of Newtown Square will fight to the end to keep density and land usage at a minimum, therefore reducing the potential impact of the site on the area.


If you want an example of a town Center done right, The Village at Valley Forge is becoming a fantastic spot. There are hotels, active adult apartments, extended stay options, townhomes, luxury apartments, a TON of food options, and space for people to enjoy the center, not just drive up, shop, and drive away.

The parking is strategically place so that you generally do not have to walk across a sea of cars to get to your destination, and there is an actual street layout.

The only issue with the Village is that is it still rather confined and surrounded by a sea of highways, but I did notice Toll Brothers is adding an extra entry road off of N Gulph Road. The key is integrating the site with the surrounding community as much as possible, and I think it is doing that as best at it can. The final missing link for that is connecting it to the KoP mall.

In general, I think KoP is an extremely important asset to the Philadelphia area, it is one of the few suburbs that is blowing up with economic development, definitely doing a better job at attracting business than Philadelphia.
Newtown Square is another area rapidly growing, but in a different sense. Newtown Square is the land of million dollar homes, KoP is a business center, so unfortunately we are not going to see a dense downtown in Newtown Square.

So in conclusion, it is a challenge for developers and townships to create a true urban village (Media, West Chester, Ardmore, etc.) nowadays because of so many factors at play. Ellis Preserve I give a C+ as of now, but I think we need to wait another 2 year to see how the hundreds of homes and apartments will integrate into the site when complete, that might raise it to a B.
Great post. The problem with this region and people’s way of thinking here is that it took an act of the PA Supreme Court to allow a project of the magnitude of the Village at VF to get off the ground. Had that not occurred, the “bats” (as you so eloquently and accurately referred to them) would have squashed it all.

Last edited by BPP1999; 11-14-2018 at 02:53 PM..
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2018, 02:09 PM
 
Location: Dude...., I'm right here
1,244 posts, read 799,046 times
Reputation: 736
Without much of green space, these are just concrete jungles or shopping meccas

Quote:
Originally Posted by cpomp View Post


If you want an example of a town Center done right, The Village at Valley Forge is becoming a fantastic spot. There are hotels, active adult apartments, extended stay options, townhomes, luxury apartments, a TON of food options, and space for people to enjoy the center, not just drive up, shop, and drive away.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-14-2018, 09:18 PM
 
Location: Metropolis
1,547 posts, read 3,477,198 times
Reputation: 972
Good input. How in the hell these “bats”, can actually get themselves to believe that having a shopping center mimicking the look of a Main Street is bad, eludes me. Do they really equate this as high density development that will somehow degrade their community and lifestyle? How does a huge strip mall, with housing next to it help things?

Assbackwards mentality IMO.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-15-2018, 07:03 AM
 
Location: New York City
6,227 posts, read 5,562,899 times
Reputation: 3325
Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanQuest View Post
Good input. How in the hell these “bats”, can actually get themselves to believe that having a shopping center mimicking the look of a Main Street is bad, eludes me. Do they really equate this as high density development that will somehow degrade their community and lifestyle? How does a huge strip mall, with housing next to it help things?

Assbackwards mentality IMO.
There is a whole slew of reasons why... I think the biggest and most general is the fear of change, whether good or bad. I see it all the time in the Media development Facebook thread. Any time new homes or development (hotel, Starbucks, etc.) is developed, people lose their s*** about how Media isn't a small town anymore and its losing its charm, and how its so different now than in 1970.... well no s***.
Would you want your town to look the same 40 years later?! And also Media looks pretty darn good these days compared to the 90s...I could rant about that forever, lol.

The Philadelphia area is very old, established and generally very beautiful, and there are a lot of upper middle class and wealthy outspoken residents who to like to call the shots or feel like they can call the shots, and the rest falls into place from there.

There is obviously some good that comes out of it like land preservation, a huge battle was won in the neighbors favor over the Beaver Valley tract of land in Concordville that Toll Brothers wanted to develop, Toll actually lost!

But then you have instances like Ellis Preserve where something is getting built no matter what, so why not make it the best it can be? Instead we get a decent but far from fantastic "town center"

If the Village at Valley Forge were replicated in Newtown Square that would be incredible for Delaware County to have Media and a new "downtown" just down the road. But neighbors would go ballistic if they heard KoP type development in their precious Newtown Square.

I am happy that Ardmore is finally catching up in the development game with the new denser mixed use structures going up... Ardmore is another town filled with crotchety neighbors, or old bats as I say
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-15-2018, 07:23 AM
 
Location: Dude...., I'm right here
1,244 posts, read 799,046 times
Reputation: 736
This is understandable because shopping centers are an open invitation to all sorts of people including riff raffs who are up to no good. Not to mention horrendous traffic that comes with the visitors.

You can't fault them for feeling this way.


Quote:
Originally Posted by UrbanQuest View Post
Good input. How in the hell these “bats”, can actually get themselves to believe that having a shopping center mimicking the look of a Main Street is bad, eludes me. Do they really equate this as high density development that will somehow degrade their community and lifestyle? How does a huge strip mall, with housing next to it help things?

Assbackwards mentality IMO.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
 
Old 11-15-2018, 07:26 AM
 
Location: New York City
6,227 posts, read 5,562,899 times
Reputation: 3325
Quote:
Originally Posted by 1ondoner View Post
This is understandable because shopping centers are an open invitation to all sorts of people including riff raffs who are up to no good. Not to mention horrendous traffic that comes with the visitors.

You can't fault them for feeling this way.
That is another good point I forgot to mention. Whether right or wrong that is definitely a huge reason.
Reply With Quote Quick reply to this message
Please register to post and access all features of our very popular forum. It is free and quick. Over $68,000 in prizes has already been given out to active posters on our forum. Additional giveaways are planned.

Detailed information about all U.S. cities, counties, and zip codes on our site: City-data.com.


Reply
Please update this thread with any new information or opinions. This open thread is still read by thousands of people, so we encourage all additional points of view.

Quick Reply
Message:


Options
X
Data:
Loading data...
Based on 2000-2016 data
Loading data...

123
Hide US histogram


Over $104,000 in prizes was already given out to active posters on our forum and additional giveaways are planned!

Go Back   City-Data Forum > U.S. Forums > Pennsylvania > Philadelphia
Follow City-Data.com founder on our Forum or

All times are GMT -6.

© 2005-2020, Advameg, Inc. · Please obey Forum Rules · Terms of Use and Privacy Policy · Bug Bounty

City-Data.com - Archive 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 11, 12, 13, 14, 15, 16, 17, 18, 19, 20, 21, 22, 23, 24, 25, 26, 27, 28, 29, 30, 31, 32, 33, 34, 35 - Top